11 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

Just saying, if the enemy is not prepared and using a reasonable amount of FASA-economic resources, is there any way to beat you? I know some Mechs have reflective armor, but in canon these are so rare. An example of this is the Quasimodo: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Quasimodo. But that is a slow, medium Mech,and thus as specialized as it is, it will still not likely beat an army of 100-ton assaults (since it lacks range and armor), and it is so specialized, if it meets an army of regular medium Mechs it will likely lose.

So basically take what I can, which I will say is a Regiment or Trinary of nothing but Hellstars if I can: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar. And presuming my economy is evolved for military need, I can afford a Hellstar just as practically as any other regiment, and if anything, the mixed Regiment is more costly since it requires a greater diversity of parts. Is there any way you can actually beat a Regiment or Cluster of Hellstars? if you are using standard Jumpship/Dropship rules (meaning they take a battalion or regiment, you take a battalion or regiment, since both cost 1-2 Jumpships and 1-6 Dropships, which are so expensive the Mech cost is secondary. )

Basically if I was a Grand Strategist (Chancellor, Coordinator, Khan, First Prince, Archon, Exarch, etc, ) I would want as many Hellstars as possible. Until the enemy starts making Mechs on an industrial-scale specifically with reflective armor and PPC Blue Shields. Not only do they do damage - since they are all energy, they require little in supplies. Again to truly counter they need an army of Quisimodos or a way to render Mech combat irrelevant - unless they go to the next step which is heavy or assault Missile/Ballistic brawlers (since those can do more DPS overall, and occupy the same Dropship/Jumpship space, even though the advantage is marginal and in groups. ) .

A Star of Hellstars can even beat a Star of Dire Wolves, since they are shooting four PPCs with heat control and doing 30%-40% more damage overall vs. Dire Wolf Prime's 4 ER Large Lasers. They also control heat better, so say get 1 extra turn of attack, meaning they actually do 50-60% more damage. At larger scales (Battalion of Hellstars vs Dire Wolves) this means even more. Now they can, in large groups be brought down by Assault-Brawlers who manage to get close, and those are still okay enough for regular combat to be useful (unlike the Quasimodo, which is questionable even vs. the Hellstar. ) But that suggests combat in Rock-Paper-Scissors stages, like they are using scissors, so you need to use rock, but if they use a bunch of normal Mechs, your Assault-Brawlers may lose or face heavy damage/be forced to retreat by a bunch of cheaper Mechs. Likewise, even if they go group vs group, your Assault-Brawlers have a good chance of losing (as 4 PPCs is pretty devastating, especially concentrated vs as many AC-20s or SRM-6s you can boat on a Mech) and I will say even in dedicated fights will lose 5-30% of the time, even in 10 vs 10 (higher numbers siding with Assault-Brawlers) and that is presuming non-flat terrain (which is fair, 90+ percent of terrain is not flat. ) The fact that anything else is likely to get absolutely butchered would make a true strategist consider and deploy Assault-Brawlers, despite all their limitations and chance, just in hope of getting a slight edge over a determined and competent opponent. For one battle this may not make sense, but if it is going to be hundreds of battles then you will want that edge, as questionable, specialized and inconvenient as it is.

Another reason I like Assault-Brawlers, and this is what gives them more flexibility then Quasimodo econo-specialists, is you can take Assault-Brawlers and destroy a city. A city, or other immobile target (logistics depot, aerospace field, base, artillery placement, Dropship if you have Battalion+ numbers (easily attained at commander/general scale), and/or any other immobile target, which most political and logistics centers are, inevitably. The fact is they can stay out of your range and hit and run you. They can out-range your group and attack you. One on one this means you lose, but if it is like you brought hundreds or thousands of Assault-Brawlers, and they are just harassing you, they simply will not be able to stop you from reaching your target. You will reach that capital city and either force it to surrender and destroy it, and no matter how much those light or medium Mechs with long-range weapons harass you, they will not stop you in time, or even close. You will get hundreds or thousands of Mechs there, despite casualties. They will not be able to save that capital city, star port or industrial center. So unless your goal, as the enemy of these Assault-Brawlers, is to destroy the attacking Mechs specifically, even if you lose your cities, bases, depots, air-fields and star-ships: you will lose. You will your lose your supplies and/or workers/civilians and/or factories. You can hit and run but if they do not chase you like an idiot - then they win.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 30 April 2017 - 11:22 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Conventinal Infanterie masses of conventional troops.
Like those of the darkest and most determined times of the sovjet army

A star of hellstar might wipe a platoon per time.
Considering to lay in ambush in fortified position.
support Plasma Rifles; firedrake (insane combination of needler and flammer)
Infernos. Soon they can only lay done 3 shots.
Of course to be less intense human life - a area bombing with Boeing jump Bombers.


OK considering Mechs only - fast and mobile ones trying to get 7 BP jumping combined with stealth at long range.
Had once created a medium clan with the mobility of a light and armor of a Heavy. Had a BV similar to the Hellstar.

[PaintedWolf]

Karl Streiger, on 30 April 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

Conventinal Infanterie masses of conventional troops.
Like those of the darkest and most determined times of the sovjet army

A star of hellstar might wipe a platoon per time.
Considering to lay in ambush in fortified position.
support Plasma Rifles; firedrake (insane combination of needler and flammer)
Infernos. Soon they can only lay done 3 shots.
Of course to be less intense human life - a area bombing with Boeing jump Bombers.


OK considering Mechs only - fast and mobile ones trying to get 7 BP jumping combined with stealth at long range.
Had once created a medium clan with the mobility of a light and armor of a Heavy. Had a BV similar to the Hellstar.

Okay do they have any sense of morale, or are they willing to just get slaughtered to win? You said like the Soviet Army, do you have any idea of what they had to sacrifice to win?



Stalin launched a series of really, really stupid counter-attacks. Sacrificing entire armies while doing almost no damage. This was covered up by the USSR for over 50-60 years. They lost 14 million people and had to militarize so much, I believe that is why they lost the Cold War. You cannot devote your entire economy to military, and then never fight, and then expect to win a culture/economy war.

[Karl Streiger]

Are we discussing BT or other stuff?
You asked how to beat "any" specialist.
By using what he is not supposed to fight.

In this case the hellstar like thunderhawk or devastator are poor when fighting conventional forces.
So when there is only victory or death than of course i would sacrifice troops.
Could also be a company of tanks for each Mech.

However looking from a more hard sicfi aspect the Achilles heel of the hellstar is heat he might save it (heatsink) but somehow he need to dump the excessive heat. Than a single sniper with a Gauss rifle (thunderstroke) can cripple it by destroying the vulnerable radiators.
In such a scenario i would rather take gunships because other than in TT game those can jump from cover make a gunpass or rocket attack and dive matter of seconds. They don't need a kill shot but to prevent them to radiate heat

[Metus regem]

Karl Streiger, on 01 May 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

Are we discussing BT or other stuff?
You asked how to beat "any" specialist.
By using what he is not supposed to fight.

In this case the hellstar like thunderhawk or devastator are poor when fighting conventional forces.
So when there is only victory or death than of course i would sacrifice troops.
Could also be a company of tanks for each Mech.

However looking from a more hard sicfi aspect the Achilles heel of the hellstar is heat he might save it (heatsink) but somehow he need to dump the excessive heat. Than a single sniper with a Gauss rifle (thunderstroke) can cripple it by destroying the vulnerable radiators.
In such a scenario i would rather take gunships because other than in TT game those can jump from cover make a gunpass or rocket attack and dive matter of seconds. They don't need a kill shot but to prevent them to radiate heat

Personally I'd use a whole tone of Yellow Jackets.... I mean you can get nearly 3 per Hellstar, and each one is capable of an instant kill against a Hellstar (thank you head shots!)

Hell, there are a few other cheap options for putting the hurt on them too, here are some of the more notable units.
Mobile Long Toms
Karnov with Artillery
SRM carriers
Demolisher II

Other options include Aerofighters and small craft, the Mechbuster is a strong contender for that role....

[PaintedWolf]

Metus regem, on 01 May 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

Personally I'd use a whole tone of Yellow Jackets.... I mean you can get nearly 3 per Hellstar, and each one is capable of an instant kill against a Hellstar (thank you head shots!)

And how are you going to get them there? It sounds nice and all to say I will counter a division of tanks with a bunch of rocket men - the problem is transportation. That is why you are unlikely to get 3 Yellowjackets for every one of my Hellstars.

So say we each bring 6 Dropships to the battle. I have all 6 of mine for Mechs, say they can bring a battalion each.

You do the same, but one of your Dropships is also bringing in vehicles. That means I have 6 Mech battalions vs your 5 Mech battalions and 1 Vehicle battalion. Each space on the Dropship equates to 1 vehicle, so basically you are wasting Dropship space. If you bring in more Dropships, you are wasting Jumpship space which is even worse.

I am sorry, but sacrificing Assault Mechs for VTOLs does sound risky. I could see a need for it, but that would largely be under special conditions. If ever it comes to a decisive battle, your forces will be doing significantly less damage for a good deal of it.

Also say I sacrifice just 1 Dropship to get Aerospace fighters (also a risky move, but also it is risky not to have any fighter support at all) - my fighters can blow your VTOLs away with ease. You will need another Dropship to protect your VTOLs and now you are 2 Battalions down.

Basically the problem, from a game balancing perspective is that Dropships take 1 unit of a type regardless of weight (A yellowjacket counts as a vehicle just as much as a Demolisher. ) for each point of space.

From that perspective, it makes the most sense to take the heaviest units possible. This is because once you:

Calculate the cost of the Jumpship.

Calculate the cost of the Dropships.

Calculate other logistical elements (crew, command, cargo, technicians, etc. )

The cost of the Mechs and Vehicles becomes marginal.

That is the main problem. If you are going through all this trouble to spend tremendous resources on Inter-Stellar transportation costs, just to bring cheap helicopters, then you really are wasting a lot of time and money. It is like buying an expensive safe worth tens of thousands of dollars to store your change.

I would say the logic of the situation means primarily Assault Mechs or Vehicles should be taken - depending on the terrain. (Dedicated vehicle carriers can usually bring in a few more then dedicated Mech carriers, however Vees have a host of limitations Mechs do not so it could end up being a trade-off of numbers vs mobility. )

Infantry taken should only be what is necessary, and same with Aerospace fighters as they cannot hold ground and are likely to play a more limited role in the main battle.

If the battlefield was 1 giant planet, then you might be correct. Or if VTOLs could teleport to new planets in massive numbers, then you might be correct. But seeing as Dropship space and the number of Jumpships available make for the hard boundaries, and those do not take into account weight (nor do Jumpships take into account what kind of Dropships they are carrying. If a Jumpship can take 4 Dropships, then that is it - whether these Dropships carry Mechs or infantry is irrelevant. )

In short, to bring in three times the numbers of VTOLs you will need either three-fold more Dropships and Jumpships, presuming sides are spending resources efficiently, or you will need to have your Jumpship make 3 trips at which point the battle will be over long before it can properly reinforce the location.

That is why you will not actually be getting 3 VTOLs per Mech, unless for some reason you have a huge naval advantage, which is more expensive then the Mechs themselves and would negate any savings made by employing VTOLs.

Like I said, personally I'd prefer Assault vehicles, since dedicated Dropships can usually bring in something like 9 more vehicles then Mechs per Dropships (Mech carriers carry around 36 Mechs when specialized, and Vehicle carriers bring 45. ) The problem is that vehicles have far more limited mobility and are less durable. So the Vees may get out-maneuvered and unable to concentrate their forces properly.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 01 May 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Karl Streiger, on 30 April 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

Conventinal Infanterie masses of conventional troops.
Like those of the darkest and most determined times of the sovjet army

A star of hellstar might wipe a platoon per time.
Considering to lay in ambush in fortified position.
support Plasma Rifles; firedrake (insane combination of needler and flammer)
Infernos. Soon they can only lay done 3 shots.
Of course to be less intense human life - a area bombing with Boeing jump Bombers.


OK considering Mechs only - fast and mobile ones trying to get 7 BP jumping combined with stealth at long range.
Had once created a medium clan with the mobility of a light and armor of a Heavy. Had a BV similar to the Hellstar.

The problem is speed. If I change targets, your infantry will not be able to reinforce the new location in time. If you spread your defenses, as is usually the case with defenders - then my Mech forces can concentrate in an area, while your infantry are struggling to get there 1 hex at a time. Now you can try bringing them to the new location with VTOLs, but that is 1 - Risky, since those can be shot down by Aerospace pretty quick. 2 - That will also take time, and likely your VTOLs only hold so many infantry, so even then you will not be able to get them there in time in sufficient numbers.

Unless there is only 1 target on the planet, or for some reason you know exactly what target I will attack beforehand and I cannot change my mind, you simply will end up with a dispersed group of infantry fighting against a concentrated group of Mechs. Your infantry regiment will be divided into battalions and companies - my regiment is able to stay together as a regiment.

As for offense, I am not sure what I would even make of that. Infantry walk 1 hex at a time, meaning it will take them forever and a day to reach their targets, and shoving them onto vehicle makes them vulnerable. VTOLs are susceptible to anti-air, and trucks can be blown up by Mechs. Also you may well need to allocate extra space on a Dropship or an extra-Dropship just to bring in these vehicles - and that is hardly a cheap solution.

Also while remaining specialists we can and should assume a reasonable amount of counter-measures will be used if one side keeps using the same tactic. For example, it is not that hard to put a couple anti-infantry weapons on a Mech or vehicle if the enemy is using excessive infantry. That would cost 1-2 heat sinks maybe, and facing a full Regiment of Mechs with anti-infantry weapons vs a single battalion of infantry unable to re-take the initiative or reinforce each other will end up being an unfair fight for the infantry.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 01 May 2017 - 03:19 PM.

[Exilyth]

Well, there are many options, among them:

• Booby trapped structures placed over deep chasms
  
• Booby trapped fast lights with M-Pods
  
• Automated pop-up turrets with rocket launchers
  
• Minefields
  
• Artillery
  
• http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Partisan and similar vehicles
  
• Battlearmor, especially swarming from ambush
  
• Infantry, especially with anti-mech training, satchel charges or inferno-srm launchers
  
• using pocket warships/mobile orbital defense lasers to stop the dropships while still in orbit
  
• turning the landscape against the attacker by forcing fights in choke points where the Hellstars are at a local numerical disadvantage
  
• Retreat and lead a guerrilla war against the invaders, including instigating rebellion against the invaders. Can't capture further systems if they're busy holding what they've got
  
• Infiltration of maintenance and repair personnel could cause a heap of sabotage all over
  
• Assasination of key personnel would be devastating to both combat efficiency and morale of employed troops
  
• Marrying a lower Davion noble to grant some plot armor to any offspring
  
• Edit: decoys, like a field base made from empty tents and a few heater units simulating body heat.

Edited by Exilyth, 02 May 2017 - 03:38 PM.

[Metus regem]

PaintedWolf, on 01 May 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

And how are you going to get them there? It sounds nice and all to say I will counter a division of tanks with a bunch of rocket men - the problem is transportation. That is why you are unlikely to get 3 Yellowjackets for every one of my Hellstars.

So say we each bring 6 Dropships to the battle. I have all 6 of mine for Mechs, say they can bring a battalion each.

You do the same, but one of your Dropships is also bringing in vehicles. That means I have 6 Mech battalions vs your 5 Mech battalions and 1 Vehicle battalion. Each space on the Dropship equates to 1 vehicle, so basically you are wasting Dropship space. If you bring in more Dropships, you are wasting Jumpship space which is even worse.

I am sorry, but sacrificing Assault Mechs for VTOLs does sound risky. I could see a need for it, but that would largely be under special conditions. If ever it comes to a decisive battle, your forces will be doing significantly less damage for a good deal of it.

Also say I sacrifice just 1 Dropship to get Aerospace fighters (also a risky move, but also it is risky not to have any fighter support at all) - my fighters can blow your VTOLs away with ease. You will need another Dropship to protect your VTOLs and now you are 2 Battalions down.

Basically the problem, from a game balancing perspective is that Dropships take 1 unit of a type regardless of weight (A yellowjacket counts as a vehicle just as much as a Demolisher. ) for each point of space.

From that perspective, it makes the most sense to take the heaviest units possible. This is because once you:

Calculate the cost of the Jumpship.

Calculate the cost of the Dropships.

Calculate other logistical elements (crew, command, cargo, technicians, etc. )

The cost of the Mechs and Vehicles becomes marginal.

That is the main problem. If you are going through all this trouble to spend tremendous resources on Inter-Stellar transportation costs, just to bring cheap helicopters, then you really are wasting a lot of time and money. It is like buying an expensive safe worth tens of thousands of dollars to store your change.

I would say the logic of the situation means primarily Assault Mechs or Vehicles should be taken - depending on the terrain. (Dedicated vehicle carriers can usually bring in a few more then dedicated Mech carriers, however Vees have a host of limitations Mechs do not so it could end up being a trade-off of numbers vs mobility. )

Infantry taken should only be what is necessary, and same with Aerospace fighters as they cannot hold ground and are likely to play a more limited role in the main battle.

If the battlefield was 1 giant planet, then you might be correct. Or if VTOLs could teleport to new planets in massive numbers, then you might be correct. But seeing as Dropship space and the number of Jumpships available make for the hard boundaries, and those do not take into account weight (nor do Jumpships take into account what kind of Dropships they are carrying. If a Jumpship can take 4 Dropships, then that is it - whether these Dropships carry Mechs or infantry is irrelevant. )

In short, to bring in three times the numbers of VTOLs you will need either three-fold more Dropships and Jumpships, presuming sides are spending resources efficiently, or you will need to have your Jumpship make 3 trips at which point the battle will be over long before it can properly reinforce the location.

That is why you will not actually be getting 3 VTOLs per Mech, unless for some reason you have a huge naval advantage, which is more expensive then the Mechs themselves and would negate any savings made by employing VTOLs.

Like I said, personally I'd prefer Assault vehicles, since dedicated Dropships can usually bring in something like 9 more vehicles then Mechs per Dropships (Mech carriers carry around 36 Mechs when specialized, and Vehicle carriers bring 45. ) The problem is that vehicles have far more limited mobility and are less durable. So the Vees may get out-maneuvered and unable to concentrate their forces properly.

Wrong.

You can convert mechs and Aerospace bays into heavy vehicle bays, each heavy vehicle bay can accommodate upto 150t of vehicles, meaning that is 5 Yellow Jackets. How ever that is moot, as VTOL'S are best used as a defensive force, making the logistics of moving them a non issue. If you mean using a mobile force to counter the Hellstar Trinary, then I'll just use UM-AVI's, shake your hand and say Google game. If you don't know what they are, they are neculear warhead equipment Arrow IV Urbanmech's. They are they only mechs in the game that has a blast template that is 12 feet across. Your Hellstar cannot out run that, and everything caught under the template is destroyed.

[Karl Streiger]

I think you need to cement the scenario
Is it a mobile Clan style campaign? (Both need drop ships)
Who is the defender?
Other words you asked how to beat the to date most capable heavy cavalry by using cavalry in your own?

Is it TT rules either strategic or tactical or is it the more abstract "real" stuff

[SnagaDance]

PaintedWolf, on 01 May 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

And how are you going to get them there? It sounds nice and all to say I will counter a division of tanks with a bunch of rocket men - the problem is transportation. That is why you are unlikely to get 3 Yellowjackets for every one of my Hellstars.

So say we each bring 6 Dropships to the battle. I have all 6 of mine for Mechs, say they can bring a battalion each.

Why would the defender need to be limited by Dropships? You're the one invading the place. Defenders are likely to be located near strategic objectives. They might be spread out between objectives but they can redeploy based on what you're targeting as well, and that doesn't need to be through DropShips. Like the aforementioned Yellowjackets for instance.

Unless you're willing to risk horrendous losses you can't just drop on top of your objectives as they're likely to have defenses versus DropShips. Defense Lasers/Cannons/Missiles or complete AeroSpace Fighter Wings. So you'd need to drop at a good distance and march to your objective, giving the defenders time to react.

Not all aspects of an invasion will be in favor of the Hellstar murderball, those things need to be taken into consideration.

[RedDragon]

Oh, one of those Painted Wold topics again, hadn't had one for ages! And as always, your strategy of only using a single cheesy unit type won't work. The only scenario in which that would make sense is a Clan batchall where you know when and where you will find your enemy.
For every other scenario: What do you hope to accomplish? You can't conquer a planet or even a single city/target with only mechs. You need air cover or your ships get blown out of the sky. You need infantry to capture and hold strategic points. Not to speak of the fact that you can get 16 (!) Urbanmechs for the price of every single Hellstar. Take those or some tanks and infantry with inferno launchers, hide them somewhere in a city and your mech force will be blown to pieces

Yes, the Hellstar is a good mech. But that's all, it is no super weapon, even (or rather especially not) when used in masses.
You can't just change the rules of the game and expect that your enemy doesn't do the same. If someone would only field a single mech type, every other power would react accordingly. But the rules of the game say that you need combined forces to capture and hold targets and that you have to react to a multitude of different threats. The only thing you can accomplish with a regiment of Hellstars is destroy something, and you can have that with orbital strikes or conventional bombardment a lot cheaper than with your death ball of mechs. It just doesn't make sense outside a power-gamer "What if" scenario.