11 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Let me preface this by saying while this would normally should be put into the Comp Subforum, this affects everyone, so it's more of a Global/General Discussion topic than just the usual.


The reason I'm starting this is because I know PGI has a "plan", but probably hasn't vetted it out enough (see FP, especially in Phase 3) so a more broad discussion needs to take place before we can properly move forward. There are some grave concerns that need to be addressed in order for it to not be a weak endeavor. Let's get to what PGI has "basically" said about the queues...

3 things:

1) Queue is 8v8 - This is the most common comp match size played. There have been other ones such as the recent Star League (6v6) and Mercstar Invitational (12v12) from a year ago (or so). MRBC is the gold standard (to my knowledge anyways) but there has been others like RHOD (Run Hot Or Die) and NBT... but I believe most comp players are familiar with the 8v8 situation.

2) Matching For MWOWC 2017 Seeding and for other leagues - This is self-explanatory as leagues commonly wish to have telemetry of the W-L/K-D ratios of the units and players participating.

3) It's another "bucket" - This will need a separate discussion (that will follow directly after this).. but the quick summary is that it will cull a portion of the population.. indirectly reducing the number "comp players" in all the related queues. This will have an impact, but let me be clear... depending on implementation, it may or may not work as intended™.


You see, how they design the queue and how they deal with certain issues is of the utmost importance. Let me break it down to 3 details...


1) Team Construction - An 8-Man Only Queue will have consequences...

We've seen this happen in previous MWO MM iterations... 8-Man Queues were a niche thing, completely reserved for Comp Play back in Open Beta, but also expanded/changed into 12-Man Queues that were as dry as the near desert. While you normally do see large groups in the public queue, the number of them is actually smaller than the normal 4-6 man groups that are more vast in number. In conjunction with the fact that most teams (regardless of size) in the group queue tend to see one another pretty often.. is commonly why people complain about large size groups (they mostly see them again, not because the large 12-man is trying to troll - it's that the MM is having a hard time finding alternatives due to population).

What has to happen is having allowing groups of various sizes compete - INCLUDING solos (there needs to be an option to opt in here) to allow the most flexible construction you can in the queue. Otherwise, you will have all sorts of queue starvation and waiting (hello FP queues)... or people simply abandoning the queue to go BACK to the main group queues (no, we're not playing FP - we're going to group queues whether you care about that or not).


2) Rewards - Why 8v8 Rewards -> initial 12v12 Rewards were garbage and why short changing comp players in 8v8 will be a bad thing

Back when we did that change (it was before MWO's "official launch"), the rewards didn't change in the sense that you "got more money".. it was a lateral move in that you didn't earn more in 8v8 than you did in 12v12. That didn't go over well until rewards were revamped.

The difference here though is that we're moving to a smaller group size. The indirectly penalty though is that there will be less killing and thereby resulting in less rewards. If the reward are not scaled to the equivalent of playing 12v12, you will see more people just generally going to the group queue because they need the C-bills. It's just simple economics. Mind you not everyone needs them more than others, but this will be an issue if left unaddressed.


3) Ratings - PSR is bad - also why separation of group and solo stats are important

It is unclear whether PGI is implementing any sort of "useful" ranking system for this queue. We do know however that PSR is flawed and is totally not useful for this purpose. Also, group vs solo statistics are not separated currently and does not tell the whole story (while this is not exactly comp queue related, it is important to know what kind of player you are with more useful telemetry). Is number of wins going to define where you rank? Or is W-L ratio going to be a more deciding factor? Regardless of what criteria that is deemed important, making sure that the stats are more granular or more clear to people using this information is of the utmost importance. Having to debate with guys that have a greater win total than myself, but yet have a worse W-L ratio is not exactly a fun discussion to be had.


TL;DR
PGI has to address 3 things in the new system:
How Teams are constructed
8v8 Queue Rewards
Ratings

If none of the above are addressed properly, there will be huge issues with the design of the queue and while honestly these are solvable, these issues will come to pass when unaddressed. I don't even remember what the Round Table notes are (please link or summarize them if you remember if at all possible), but having had zero discussion from PGI or any other source as of late... this is going to be a grave concern once that queue is going to be created in the near future (scheduled for June at the moment).

Without knowing any obvious plans from PGI, this can and will be a problem if/when left unaddressed. Considering previous plans... I'd like to hear better solutions and options if at all possible.

I won't be able to answer them immediately (I will certainly get back to everyone later tonight in 5-6 hours from now).

[Bishop Steiner]

wasn't the idea of FW orignally meant to be Comp Oriented....and as soon as all the comp wannabes got exposed on it, they went back to farming QP anyhow?

Don't get me wrong, would love for you guys to have your own playground.... just don't see it improving the actual play experience for the other 99% any......

Also... can we just get 8v8 back for all QP?

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 May 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

wasn't the idea of FW orignally meant to be Comp Oriented....and as soon as all the comp wannabes got exposed on it, they went back to farming QP anyhow?

It was supposed to be more "team oriented" as in the idea that units would mostly be competing with each other for their factions honor (or whatever). The issue is more about solos being involved, but that indirectly involves "disorganized" players... (not that there aren't any "less than organized" units - they do exist). Getting organized does involve work... some of which doesn't quite exist in FP.. which is the core problem.

Quote

Don't get me wrong, would love for you guys to have your own playground.... just don't see it improving the actual play experience for the other 99% any......

Often times, the number of comp players on one team is usually a determining factor (or at least the quality of them at least). It's not a guarantee and poop happens... but it's really not hard to predict these things most of the time.

Quote

Also... can we just get 8v8 back for all QP?

Probably not... PGI committed to 12v12 since "the official release" date. While I'm not adverse to go back on it, it makes a lot of work done for it, whether it be map expansion or "the UI", somewhat of a wasted effort.

I'm sure "sunk cost" will go over well in Vancouver.

[Scout Derek]

All I can say is that it's going to be a hectic time the first few months. I'll leave it open to interpretation on what will be "hectic".

[Deathlike]

Scout Derek, on 01 May 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

All I can say is that it's going to be a hectic time the first few months. I'll leave it open to interpretation on what will be "hectic".

I don't believe it will be hectic. In fact, it has a chance to be a reflection/reminder of what the FP queues are/can be like at certain hours of the day.

[Navid A1]

I keep myself away from having any sort of expectation.

PGI will mess things up somehow.

[Deathlike]

Navid A1, on 01 May 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

I keep myself away from having any sort of expectation.

PGI will mess things up somehow.

Set the bar low.

PGI manages to dig under it.

I know teh feels man.

[EgoSlayer]

Deathlike, on 01 May 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

Let me preface this by saying while this would normally should be put into the Comp Subforum, this affects everyone, so it's more of a Global/General Discussion topic than just the usual.


The reason I'm starting this is because I know PGI has a "plan", but probably hasn't vetted it out enough (see FP, especially in Phase 3) so a more broad discussion needs to take place before we can properly move forward. There are some grave concerns that need to be addressed in order for it to not be a weak endeavor. Let's get to what PGI has "basically" said about the queues...

3 things:

1) Queue is 8v8 - This is the most common comp match size played. There have been other ones such as the recent Star League (6v6) and Mercstar Invitational (12v12) from a year ago (or so). MRBC is the gold standard (to my knowledge anyways) but there has been others like RHOD (Run Hot Or Die) and NBT... but I believe most comp players are familiar with the 8v8 situation.

2) Matching For MWOWC 2017 Seeding and for other leagues - This is self-explanatory as leagues commonly wish to have telemetry of the W-L/K-D ratios of the units and players participating.

3) It's another "bucket" - This will need a separate discussion (that will follow directly after this).. but the quick summary is that it will cull a portion of the population.. indirectly reducing the number "comp players" in all the related queues. This will have an impact, but let me be clear... depending on implementation, it may or may not work as intended™.


You see, how they design the queue and how they deal with certain issues is of the utmost importance. Let me break it down to 3 details...


1) Team Construction - An 8-Man Only Queue will have consequences...

We've seen this happen in previous MWO MM iterations... 8-Man Queues were a niche thing, completely reserved for Comp Play back in Open Beta, but also expanded/changed into 12-Man Queues that were as dry as the near desert. While you normally do see large groups in the public queue, the number of them is actually smaller than the normal 4-6 man groups that are more vast in number. In conjunction with the fact that most teams (regardless of size) in the group queue tend to see one another pretty often.. is commonly why people complain about large size groups (they mostly see them again, not because the large 12-man is trying to troll - it's that the MM is having a hard time finding alternatives due to population).

What has to happen is having allowing groups of various sizes compete - INCLUDING solos (there needs to be an option to opt in here) to allow the most flexible construction you can in the queue. Otherwise, you will have all sorts of queue starvation and waiting (hello FP queues)... or people simply abandoning the queue to go BACK to the main group queues (no, we're not playing FP - we're going to group queues whether you care about that or not).


2) Rewards - Why 8v8 Rewards -> initial 12v12 Rewards were garbage and why short changing comp players in 8v8 will be a bad thing

Back when we did that change (it was before MWO's "official launch"), the rewards didn't change in the sense that you "got more money".. it was a lateral move in that you didn't earn more in 8v8 than you did in 12v12. That didn't go over well until rewards were revamped.

The difference here though is that we're moving to a smaller group size. The indirectly penalty though is that there will be less killing and thereby resulting in less rewards. If the reward are not scaled to the equivalent of playing 12v12, you will see more people just generally going to the group queue because they need the C-bills. It's just simple economics. Mind you not everyone needs them more than others, but this will be an issue if left unaddressed.


3) Ratings - PSR is bad - also why separation of group and solo stats are important

It is unclear whether PGI is implementing any sort of "useful" ranking system for this queue. We do know however that PSR is flawed and is totally not useful for this purpose. Also, group vs solo statistics are not separated currently and does not tell the whole story (while this is not exactly comp queue related, it is important to know what kind of player you are with more useful telemetry). Is number of wins going to define where you rank? Or is W-L ratio going to be a more deciding factor? Regardless of what criteria that is deemed important, making sure that the stats are more granular or more clear to people using this information is of the utmost importance. Having to debate with guys that have a greater win total than myself, but yet have a worse W-L ratio is not exactly a fun discussion to be had.


TL;DR
PGI has to address 3 things in the new system:
How Teams are constructed
8v8 Queue Rewards
Ratings

If none of the above are addressed properly, there will be huge issues with the design of the queue and while honestly these are solvable, these issues will come to pass when unaddressed. I don't even remember what the Round Table notes are (please link or summarize them if you remember if at all possible), but having had zero discussion from PGI or any other source as of late... this is going to be a grave concern once that queue is going to be created in the near future (scheduled for June at the moment).

Without knowing any obvious plans from PGI, this can and will be a problem if/when left unaddressed. Considering previous plans... I'd like to hear better solutions and options if at all possible.

I won't be able to answer them immediately (I will certainly get back to everyone later tonight in 5-6 hours from now).

I seriously doubt the rewards are going to be boosted, in fact I thought they said it was going to be like a private lobby so no rewards at all and that sparked a few questions about consumables being free in that mode.

Also, the ranking system is back to elo, no PSR.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 01 May 2017 - 05:45 PM.

[Mawai]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 May 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

wasn't the idea of FW orignally meant to be Comp Oriented....and as soon as all the comp wannabes got exposed on it, they went back to farming QP anyhow?

Don't get me wrong, would love for you guys to have your own playground.... just don't see it improving the actual play experience for the other 99% any......

Also... can we just get 8v8 back for all QP?

8v8 requires up to 50% greater server load than 12v12 depending on what fraction of resources is associated with a game instance vs resources/player. I think this was one of the factors behind the move to 12v12. The other factor may have been the hope that it would be easier to get more balanced matches out of 12v12 than 8v8 though that is speculation.

PGI also has not invested the resources needed to improve game balance in the matchmaker but particularly in the player/mech rating system used to determine player placement. Elo was probably a better indication of actual player skill than the current PSR system but there were challenges in matchmaking for folks at the top and bottom of the distribution and folks didn't understand how their individual contribution could actually be extracted from the results of large team group matches ... thus PSR was born.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 May 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

Also... can we just get 8v8 back for all QP?

For a "lore" guy, you sure disappoint me. <shrugs>

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 01 May 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

For a "lore" guy, you sure disappoint me. <shrugs>

Somehow I won't lose sleep over it.

PGI has NEVER gotten 12 v 12 to work. It'd be great if it did. It doesn't.

Deal with it.

[Valhallan]

Mystere, on 01 May 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

For a "lore" guy, you sure disappoint me. <shrugs>

meh i don't see how it's a problem, most think they are playing as the front-line galaxies or elite IS formations, but in reality the vast majority of us are playing as garrison formations/solahma units or green-rated/new sibko units. Which don't really adhere to military formations cuz lack of stuffz .