34 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 03 May 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Rifles would be rather nice, imo, primitive armor eh? Sure, but I mean 2/3rds as good as standard armor for half the cost? Without R&R there isn't a place for that imo, outside of like events or custom games. But, yeah oddball Solaris tech would be nice, fluff out stuff. Sure it won't be used often, that's the point of Solaris tech, create some cool niche builds and more uncertainty on the battlefield with IS mechs having weird *** weapons.

primitive armor so that rifles can do some damage to mechs. i pretty much want this.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 May 2017 - 10:00 AM.

[Nutta88]

Armored Yokai, on 03 May 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

Introduced in 3059, Clan Star Adder developed the Heavy Lasers as a way of packing more punch into a relatively small package.All Heavy Lasers, however, build up a tremendous amount of heat and potentially interfere with a 'mech's sensors. The Heavy Large Laser receives a +1 to-hit modifier to reflect that.

"All Heavy Lasers"

Hit them with a Nerf bat like you did to my poor SLDF Gauss Rifles

+1 is in effectively a range penalty in TT, as to hit roll gets +2 harder with each longer distance. As effective range in MWO tends to be TT long range, you could make it so Heavy lasers have just have a effective range between TT medium and long range. So instead of 450m for the heavy large laser just make them 375m.

[Battlemaster56]

Let's not try to destroy heavy lasers already they already pay the price for ridiculous heat and space, and ghost heat will keep em in check. Heavy lasers don't need a ridiculous long beam duration just 10-15% increase duration and they be fine as they will fit the niche of a close range brawling option besides c small er/pulse lasers in the game.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

LordNothing, on 03 May 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

primitive armor so that rifles can do some damage to mechs.

Light Rifle: 1 heat, 3 damage, 360m/720m, 3 tons, 1 crit, 18 shots/ton, 37,750 cbills/gun, 800 cbills/on of ammo.
Medium Rifle: 2 heat, 6 damage, 450m/900m, 5 tons, 2 crits, 9 shots/ton, 75,500 cbills/gun, 1000 cbills/ton of ammo.
Heavy Rifle: 4 heat, 9 damage, 540m/1080m, 8 tons, 3 crits, 6 shots/ton, 90,000 cbills/gun, 3000 cbills/ton of ammo.

Those are pretty good even in MWO. In fact, better than AC2's and AC5's in terms of damage per ton, the main issue is longevity of the build. PGI likely would increase ammo per ton to be 30-36, 18-27, 12-18 shots per ton for light, medium, and heavy rifles.

[Mcgral18]

Nutta88, on 03 May 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

+1 is in effectively a range penalty in TT, as to hit roll gets +2 harder with each longer distance. As effective range in MWO tends to be TT long range, you could make it so Heavy lasers have just have a effective range between TT medium and long range. So instead of 450m for the heavy large laser just make them 375m.

Harsher falloff seems more appropriate


Same optimal range as the Spheroid version (SL being heavily changed, isSL is already an isERSL...)
But instead of 2x, or even 1.6x (of some of the cPLs), some different falloff for respectable burn times
Or high recycle on top of it all

[ice trey]

Heavy Lasers aren't pinpoint and have a chance of scattering.
Bam. Done.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Mcgral18, on 03 May 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

Harsher falloff seems more appropriate


Same optimal range as the Spheroid version (SL being heavily changed, isSL is already an isERSL...)
But instead of 2x, or even 1.6x (of some of the cPLs), some different falloff for respectable burn times
Or high recycle on top of it all

Harsher fall off with Sphereroid optimal ranges sounds like a good starting point. The HSL could burn for longer since it is going to do 6 damage, so a 1.125s burn time is just a breath under cERML burn time (1.15), HML go for 1.35s only 3 more damage over cERML so only .2s longer isn't much more, and HLL go for 1.5s to match with cERLL, even though it is double damage.

Do ghost heat of more than 3-4 for HSL, more than 2 for HML, and more than 1 for HLL. Because 18 or 24 damage, 20 damage, and 16 damage for each of those ghost heat groups. Which is in line with current groups from what I recall, aka, ghost heat penalty for doing more than 20 damage in one go. At least from what I internalized it is "ghost heat kicks in on anything that does more than 20 damage together" or maybe they have it as 25 so 4xMPL work together. Someone correct me on that so I can give a more accurate ghost heat bracket.

Edited by Moonlight Grimoire, 03 May 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 03 May 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Harsher fall off with Sphereroid optimal ranges sounds like a good starting point. The HSL could burn for longer since it is going to do 6 damage, so a 1.125s burn time is just a breath under cERML burn time (1.15), HML go for 1.35s only 3 more damage over cERML so only .2s longer isn't much more, and HLL go for 1.5s to match with cERLL, even though it is double damage.

Do ghost heat of more than 3-4 for HSL, more than 2 for HML, and more than 1 for HLL. Because 18 or 24 damage, 20 damage, and 16 damage for each of those ghost heat groups. Which is in line with current groups from what I recall, aka, ghost heat penalty for doing more than 20 damage in one go. At least from what I internalized it is "ghost heat kicks in on anything that does more than 20 damage together" or maybe they have it as 25 so 4xMPL work together. Someone correct me on that so I can give a more accurate ghost heat bracket.

I wouldn't go that low

I'd go 2 HLL (32-36 likely)
4 HML (40-ish)
6 HSL (it's only the same as the cSPL, at shorter range, for half the weight)


Bump the isML to 8, and we get similar values (isSL just lacking 16 hardpoints, to stack 13 of them with 3 LPLs...or being a useful weapon in itself)

cSPL has 36, ERSL 30
cMPL has 48, cERML 42, isML 30, isMPL 36 (RIP)
cLPL 26, cERLL 22, isLPL 33


So, mostly in line with the high end, but with additional heat, and/or shorter range

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 May 2017 - 10:41 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Just looking at Energy weapons;

Ghost Heat limits + damage thresholds

Small Laser - no limit (practical limit of 8) - 24 damage
Small Pulse Laser - no limit (practical limit of 8) - 32 damage
Medium Laser - limit of 6 - 30 damage
Medium Pulse Laser - limit of 6 - 36 damage
(ER) Large Laser - limit of 3 - 27 damage
Large Pulse Laser - limit of 3 - 33 damage
PPC - limit of 2 - 20 damage
ER PPC - limit of 2 - 20 damage

ER Small Laser - limit of 6 - 30 damage
Small Pulse Laser - limit of 6 - 36 damage
ER Medium Laser - limit of 6 - 42 damage
Medium Pulse Laser - limit of 6 - 48 damage
ER Large Laser - limit of 2 - 22 damage
Large Pulse Laser - limit of 2 - 26 damage
ER PPC - limit of 2 - 20(30) damage

[Edit]
So, Heavy Small Laser should be changed to at least 7 damage, right? Otherwise, why take them over SPLs? Oh yes, the tonnage! Still... Then leave them at a GH limit of 6 for 42 damage
Heavy Medium Lasers should be fine with a GH limit of 4-5 (40 to 50 damage)
Heavy Large Lasers keeping to a GH limit of 2 gives 36 damage. Tempted to say they should buff the damage to 19, just to make the gap between them and LPLs larger, for a 38 damage limit.
[/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 03 May 2017 - 11:45 AM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Mcgral18, on 03 May 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

I wouldn't go that low

I'd go 2 HLL (32-36 likely)
4 HML (40-ish)
6 HSL (it's only the same as the cSPL, at shorter range, for half the weight)


Bump the isML to 8, and we get similar values (isSL just lacking 16 hardpoints, to stack 13 of them with 3 LPLs...or being a useful weapon in itself)

cSPL has 36, ERSL 30
cMPL has 48, cERML 42, isML 30, isMPL 36 (RIP)
cLPL 26, cERLL 22, isLPL 33


So, mostly in line with the high end, but with additional heat, and/or shorter range

Alright, yeah then 5-6 HSL 30-36 damage, 3 HML for 30 damage, 2 HLL for the likely 32 damage. This keeps it in line with the others. If we error on a longer burn (1.35s) for HML then 4HML I feel is fine as that would be (10*4)/1.35=29.63 damage per second during that burn. That's going to hurt, even with human reaction time being pretty fast you will get a good solid chunk of damage before the enemy registers they are being hit (around 10 damage) with 4 HML's to the component you want to hit, then 30 damage to the rest of the mech.

So 6, 4, 2 would work, so would 6, 4, 1, or 5, 3, 1 (to but that would be if Heavy Lasers post launch in August are just too good I would move them down to that). As it is, 6, 4, 2 feels right given where other ghost heat damage thresholds for energy weapons are now.

Of course these would not ghost heat with any other energy weapons so you can actually use other energy weapons.

Edited by Moonlight Grimoire, 03 May 2017 - 11:09 AM.

[Reno Blade]

i would increase beam durations for beavy lasers (but also in general for all lasers) see my sig for my take on new weapons.

[Mcgral18]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 03 May 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

Of course these would not ghost heat with any other energy weapons so you can actually use other energy weapons.

I would expect them to share with what they do now

All Small/Med linked with all others, Larges with themselves

Prevents exceedingly large LOLphas.
Only ERML and HLLs, really
Complimenting ranges, and high damage

[Baulven]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 03 May 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

Burn time also, as mentioned, helps balance it, given they do double damage of IS standard lasers at IS standard laser ranges we could see burn times for like a Heavy ML be 1.35 (so 1.5x ML burn time, which is only .2 seconds longer than a cERML which does 7 vs the 10 damage of a HML).

So in theory they could do:

Heavy Small Laser: 1.125s (I feel this is probably a little long for 6 damage, but, using a formula, but, it is for half a ton and one crit, has to have a drawback beyond just the heat, otherwise you just boat them and heat sinks)
Heavy Medium Laser: 1.35s
Heavy Large Laser: 1.50s (due to cERLL is already 1.5s, of course you could have them be the same time, no real harm there as far as I can see since different range, 450m with a much stiffer fall of due to clan laser makes it not sync well with cERLL anyways.

These times mean you need a while to get the full damage of the laser burn on target which in of itself means the target has time to get out of the way, equal to a +1 accuracy penalty, just like say low velocity is a +1 accuracy penalty, or bad spread, or how high velocity would be a -1 or -2.

Those numbers are a good way to make sure they are all DOA. Unless a mech is super hardpoint and weight starved it would never take those weapons over other options. When your opponent can spread your damage over pretty much every component the burn is way too long. That is the reason you never see ERLL people either go PPC or slot back to a different range bracket.

Edited by Baulven, 03 May 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[Armored Yokai]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Good way to make them useless.

almost unusable high heat. Burn duration, and now you want charge up...why cuz you are bad at using Gauss with the charge? (Cuz, um, Clan Gauss has it too, not jsut your poor SLDF goose).

Ridiculous Heat and GH thresholds will control HLaser Spam plenty enough. Just because you were happy with Gauss be the only useful ballistics that obsoleted all other doesn't mean it was good for the game.

As for Accuracy? Easy to emulate other ways, from light CoF (like with MGs), to the more likely (and worse choice) of long burn duration making it hard to keep on target.

This sounds more like being upset over Goose Waffles not being EZmode (well, uber ezmode) than it is about genuine balance or even lore concerns.

.
Lore wise there's no indication of Gauss rifles requiring a charge mechanic
and when it comes to heavy lasers they have a problem with mech sensors because of the tremendous power they use
so in conclusion why not apply the gauss rifle's current logic into heavy lasers and just cut out the ghost heat?
you are right I just don't like charge on a weapon I'm so used to using in the previous titles, but it really isn't difficult while the charge mechanic just stops you from using the weapon right away it is compensated by the gauss bullet travel which is very fast and nearly impossible to dodge...but then again entirely this is all just balance because of units and a few others on an online game tend to abuse things and ruin things for the rest of players (Knock Down and Jumpjets as an Example)

[Johnny Z]

F no.