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It Seems Like Clans Will Be Completely Overpowered With The Skill Tree


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#1 Mortalcoil

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 05:57 PM

How will there be any balance after the skill tree comes out? It makes no sense. The whole point of the quirks was to give IS a fighting chance against clan. With both clan and IS getting the same skill tree and almost all of the IS mechs losing their quirks, how will IS have any chance? I don't understand. This isn't just a complaining post. I am really just trying to figure it out. Am I missing something? Even when the new tech comes out clan weapons will still be lighter. I just don't understand it. Also, won't the skill tree make mechs without many armor/structure quirks completely obsolete?

For example, the BLR 2C, which was already probably the best Battlemaster, is keeping all of its armor quirks while almost all of the offensive quirks are of the other Battlemasters are being removed. Why would anyone play any other battlemaster? The grasshopper mechs are the same way. The 5P is going to be objectively better. Mechs without armor quirks are going to be nonexistant. Can someone explain this to me how this is supposed to make sense or be balanced?

Edited by Mortalcoil, 03 May 2017 - 05:58 PM.


#2 El Bandito

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 05:59 PM

PGI never made sense on their balancing department. I've been with the game from the beginning, and PGI's gross incompetence when it comes to mech/weapon/equipment/faction balancing is already meme-worthy.

And now they are bringing in new tech, which will further expose their incompetence.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2017 - 06:02 PM.


#3 MrJeffers

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:01 PM

View PostMortalcoil, on 03 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:


Am I missing something?



Nope. You're Not missing anything.

#4 Monkey Lover

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:04 PM

So they say they want to baseline all the mechs again and balance from there. Ok i can understand this a little.The new tech will surely help for example the light engine ,target computer and the battlemaster will be great. Might even be better than before but not every mech will have this

So for at least 2 months IS mechs are going to suck. Then after new tech they will wait a few months before even starting to balance.

So if you have a junk IS mech that's not going ot be helped by the new tech dont plan on any help for 6 months and even then maybe never.

At the best new tech and skill tree for some heavy, assaults might even be better.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 May 2017 - 06:05 PM.


#5 Ruar

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:11 PM

I think they are going to wait until after the new tech release before they dig into IS/Clan balance. It would make no sense to nerf the Clans now and then see they are behind the power curve once the IS gets weapons that are better parity.

Plus, not all quirks were removed from IS mechs. Some still have a few offensive quirks.

All in all, they are going to have to do a balance pass by the end of the year. Give it a month or two after the new tech comes out and the skill tree settles in and start boosting the mechs that need help and dialing down the mechs that are too much.

#6 Athom83

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:19 PM

I find it funny how the forums are back and forth between "OMG Clans OP with skillz tree" and "OMG IS OP with new tech".

#7 Ruar

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:26 PM

View PostAthom83, on 03 May 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

I find it funny how the forums are back and forth between "OMG Clans OP with skillz tree" and "OMG IS OP with new tech".


The clans will have a definite advantage until the tech comes out. They have a definite advantage right now just in the XL engines alone without even factoring in the extended range of weapons. The IS does have advantages in close though. I only play QP so it's not really a big deal since the teams are mixed. Going back to FP though would suck since range > brawling.

Edited by Ruar, 03 May 2017 - 06:30 PM.


#8 Alexander of Macedon

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:10 PM

Even with current quirks + skill tree + new tech, clans would still have been overpowered because of 7-slot FF & ES, Clan XL, and omnipod optimization. It's laughable to think otherwise.

#9 Monkey Lover

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:20 PM

View PostRuar, on 03 May 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

The clans will have a definite advantage until the tech comes out. They have a definite advantage right now just in the XL engines alone without even factoring in the extended range of weapons. The IS does have advantages in close though. I only play QP so it's not really a big deal since the teams are mixed. Going back to FP though would suck since range > brawling.


Sorry but no they don't, Clans still out brawling IS with srm and spl . Just check the mechs people bring in the comp games. I seen a few griffins but these aren't doing the greatest.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 May 2017 - 07:20 PM.


#10 Pixel Hunter

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:21 PM

all I can say is it's not going to be pretty...and PGI seems hellbent on killing all quirks no matter the consequences, which baffles me

quirks were there just to balance clans out and now without half of them for most mechs it's going to be a stomp. Light fusion engines aren't as good as they seem, and all the other tech IMO is small potatoes.

IS mechs NEED their quirks rolled into base stats

Edited by Gimpy117, 03 May 2017 - 07:23 PM.


#11 El Bandito

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:28 PM

View PostAthom83, on 03 May 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

I find it funny how the forums are back and forth between "OMG Clans OP with skillz tree" and "OMG IS OP with new tech".


Because there are both IS and Clan players in the forums.


View PostMonkey Lover, on 03 May 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

Sorry but no they don't, Clans still out brawling IS with srm and spl . Just check the mechs people bring in the comp games. I seen a few griffins but these aren't doing the greatest.


While I agree that Clans currently hold the edge over IS in brawling, in CW that's mitigated a little by 25 tons of advantage IS has. Of course, drop deck tonnage is a very bad way to balance the game, since core issues are still not addressed.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2017 - 07:30 PM.


#12 Khobai

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:32 PM

one of the problems is PGI removed tonnage matchmaking in quickplay

if the matchmaker actually matched tonnage then it could count clan mechs as being 5-10 tons heavier when putting together teams. that would help balance things more.

wed have to wait a bit longer for matches probably, but the games would be more balanced.

Quote

Of course, drop deck tonnage is a very bad way to balance the game, since core issues are still not addressed.


its still better than nothing. especially since those core issues are likely to NEVER get addressed.

Edited by Khobai, 03 May 2017 - 07:34 PM.


#13 FireStoat

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:34 PM

From my limited point of view as I'm a Clan player, I'm unwilling to judge much of anything until the Tech Update drops on this subject. The moment it does, I'm going to directly compare the Marauder 3R with the new tech and tree against the Timberwolf and Orion IIC mechs (all 3 are 75 tons). I have a sneaking suspicion that at that stage, all bets will be off on which will become my favorite, or feel 'strongest'.

#14 - Pestilence -

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:37 PM

View PostMortalcoil, on 03 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

How will there be any balance after the skill tree comes out? It makes no sense. The whole point of the quirks was to give IS a fighting chance against clan. With both clan and IS getting the same skill tree and almost all of the IS mechs losing their quirks, how will IS have any chance? I don't understand. This isn't just a complaining post. I am really just trying to figure it out. Am I missing something? Even when the new tech comes out clan weapons will still be lighter. I just don't understand it. Also, won't the skill tree make mechs without many armor/structure quirks completely obsolete?

For example, the BLR 2C, which was already probably the best Battlemaster, is keeping all of its armor quirks while almost all of the offensive quirks are of the other Battlemasters are being removed. Why would anyone play any other battlemaster? The grasshopper mechs are the same way. The 5P is going to be objectively better. Mechs without armor quirks are going to be nonexistant. Can someone explain this to me how this is supposed to make sense or be balanced?

If you think it will be that bad, just play clan mechs until they balance everything again.

#15 Mortalcoil

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:41 PM

View Post- Pestilence -, on 03 May 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

If you think it will be that bad, just play clan mechs until they balance everything again.


I don't think good game design is everyone buying 4 clan mechs, skilling them up, breaking their IS faction, joining a clan faction, and then ghost dropping forever because everyone is now clan.

#16 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 08:14 PM

Clan will make out better when dealing with the Weapon Tree,
but IS will make out better when dealing with the Defense Tree(as IS mechs arnt losing their Structure/Armor Quirks)
also IS are also getting most of their Agility Quirks Rolled into their Base Mobility, and Clan are being Nerfed here,
(an ACH will have the Agility as if it had an 180 Engine)

#17 Novakaine

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 08:24 PM

Posted Image

#18 Koniving

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 08:24 PM

View PostMortalcoil, on 03 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

How will there be any balance after the skill tree comes out? It makes no sense. The whole point of the quirks was to give IS a fighting chance against clan. With both clan and IS getting the same skill tree and almost all of the IS mechs losing their quirks, how will IS have any chance? I don't understand. This isn't just a complaining post. I am really just trying to figure it out. Am I missing something? Even when the new tech comes out clan weapons will still be lighter. I just don't understand it. Also, won't the skill tree make mechs without many armor/structure quirks completely obsolete?

For example, the BLR 2C, which was already probably the best Battlemaster, is keeping all of its armor quirks while almost all of the offensive quirks are of the other Battlemasters are being removed. Why would anyone play any other battlemaster? The grasshopper mechs are the same way. The 5P is going to be objectively better. Mechs without armor quirks are going to be nonexistant. Can someone explain this to me how this is supposed to make sense or be balanced?



Everything in this quote is relevant, but the facts leading up to the point are tucked into the spoiler, and within spoilers in that spoiler are numerous examples of mechs without quirks vs quirked Clan mechs and kicking ***

View PostKoniving, on 28 April 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

Spoiler

Why does all of this matter?



For the past two years, the Clans have been getting gentle blanket buffs to counteract all the overpowered nonsense that the IS mechs have from the plethora of quirks just thrown on them. And every new mech gets even more quirks than the last, perpetuating a never ending cycle known as power creep.

The removal of 'most' quirks is to do two things. 1) Remove a shitload of the power creep. 2) Allow you to choose your own quirks.

If they remove the quirks, they can remove the blanket buffs, and all the rapid kills can be majorly toned down again so that the game can again, potentially, be fun.

Fun like it used to be before quirks, where you didn't die instantly because you turned a corner and saw 2 enemies. Fun where you could be exchanging fire against someone within 300 meters of each other and have the time to pick up your drink, take a sip, put it down, type everything you just did to rub it in, and then tell him that it's been fun but it's time for him to die... and then make the kill.

For me that was a far more enjoyable social experience than what it is now. "H--" BOOM!, dead. "Jesus, can't even say hi before I get killed."

Note: Every single video I chose is before the "Quirkening," where IS mechs received a plethora of quirks, prior to that most IS mechs did not have quirks even while every single Clan mech did! And the IS was not only fun but at times still overpowered. This changed however when the Hellbringer brought Clans a heavy ECM and then everything hit the fan because every balance decision after had been reactionary. "This is too powerful!" buffs the opposing side. "ZOMG OVERPOWERED!" Buffs the previously too powerful side... "No more negatives!" Removes all negative quirks, dramatically increasing the deadliness of both sides. The mechs that used to have negative quirks suddenly become the best mechs in the game. Everything gets super quirks to counteract it. IS quirks are too great "ZOMG don't touch my quirks!"... Clans get steady blanket buffs every few patches to help counter the IS quirks. "ZOMG CLANS OP!" More quirks to IS.. More blanket buffs to Clans.

"War just isn't what it used to be." (Link is for the reference.)

(Edit 1: Added a bit more.)
(Edit 2: Realized the power creep video poofed. Added Lordred videos. Added mechlist.)
I currently have 246 mechs.
Of them...
29 IS lights
56 IS Mediums
48 IS Heavies
40 IS Assaults
16 Clan lights
19 Clan mediums
18 Clan heavies
20 Clan assaults

From what I have, with few exceptions the IS is generally superior in everything except range and laser damage, but more damage versus significantly shorter beam times, the shorter beam times to deliver the damage faster and in the right spots makes all the difference in the world.

If you fight in the open (Clan turf) as an IS mech, yes you're screwed seven ways to Sunday. Much like many Clan mechs are screwed if they fight in cluttered areas.

After this skill tree... "War has changed." (Link to reference.)


Note using an android. For the quote and the original thread click the arrow next to my name in the quote.
Of course... If PIG removes all the blanket buffs for the Clans they could remove about 90% of the quirks (IS especially) and we would still hear complaints of Overpowered IS.

Edited by Koniving, 03 May 2017 - 08:29 PM.


#19 Khobai

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 08:27 PM

Quote

(an ACH will have the Agility as if it had an 180 Engine)


why? it has a 240 engine. it should have the agility as if it had a 240 engine.

the whole point of decoupling is to punish mechs with oversized engines not punish mechs with normal engines for their tonnage. a 240 engine is normal for a 30 tonner.

#20 Koniving

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 08:31 PM

View PostKhobai, on 03 May 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:


why? it has a 240 engine. it should have the agility as if it had a 240 engine.

the whole point of decoupling is to punish mechs with oversized engines not punish mechs with normal engines for their tonnage. a 240 engine is normal for a 30 tonner.


Name one stock mechs with a 240 and 30 tons.

Speeds over 129 mph aren't even considered normal for mechs in general. Very few exceptions exist and usually are masc assisted.

Edit. Fair enough was thinking higher.

Edited by Koniving, 03 May 2017 - 08:36 PM.






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