95 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

So as i was shredding people with my ATM-48 Supernova, i just realized, i was doing 144 damage/volley, add 28 damage from my MPL too.

I get that it's close-range, at within 270m and 120m (safe number is around 150m), but still that's washing over people with 144 damage. I understand that it's literally 28 tons worth of weapons, that there's only a small band of range that it does this when the rest has actually okay damage, range which people that were able to boat en-masse in the first place wouldn't be able to do so with good speed alloted to their mechs.

But man, 144 damage being washed over someone at a close range? Isn't that disconcerting, shouldn't that be any least sequestered?

What are your thoughts about ATMs?

[DovisKhan]

The6thMessenger, on 02 February 2018 - 12:05 AM, said:

So as i was shredding people with my ATM-48 Supernova, i just realized, i was doing 144 damage/volley, add 28 damage from my MPL too.

I get that it's close-range, at within 270m and 120m (safe number is around 150m), but still that's washing over people with 144 damage. I understand that it's literally 28 tons worth of weapons, that there's only a small band of range that it does this when the rest has actually okay damage, range which people that were able to boat en-masse in the first place wouldn't be able to do so with good speed alloted to their mechs.

But man, 144 damage being washed over someone at a close range? Isn't that disconcerting, shouldn't that be any least sequestered?

What are your thoughts about ATMs?

given that very few mechs can do this and they pay a heck of a price for that I'd say it's all good

[El Bandito]

The6thMessenger, on 02 February 2018 - 12:05 AM, said:

I get that it's close-range, at within 270m and 120m (safe number is around 150m), but still that's washing over people with 144 damage. I understand that it's literally 28 tons worth of weapons, that there's only a small band of range that it does this when the rest has actually okay damage, range which people that were able to boat en-masse in the first place wouldn't be able to do so with good speed alloted to their mechs.

You already pointed out just how limited the damage band actually is. There is a reason you do not see ATM boating Supernovas being popular. Besides, IS has 100-120 damage MRM builds that are not as constrained.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 February 2018 - 01:16 AM.

[ZaccaR]

i ran my maddog with twin ATM12, in those matches where you can keep them in your sweetrangespot all is awesome but when they underrun your minimum range you better have some backup weapons aboard. So for me its mixed, one match its 1k damage dealt and the next its 200.

Now i run the MDD with a single ATM12 and either 2x SRM or Streaks depending on mood.

Facing a Supernova with Quad ATM is scary as hell i give you that

[The6thMessenger]

Not that one match proves something, but i'm reaching damages that normally i don't reach, like 1543 damage in one QP match -- we still lost by the way. Maybe i just didn't carried hard enough, or the ATMs are pretty inefficient, but still.

[lazorbeamz]

I think its ok because you need to waste time to lock your targets.

[TWIAFU]

The6thMessenger, on 02 February 2018 - 01:43 AM, said:

Not that one match proves something, but i'm reaching damages that normally i don't reach, like 1543 damage in one QP match -- we still lost by the way. Maybe i just didn't carried hard enough, or the ATMs are pretty inefficient, but still.

Firing a shotgun into a barrel of fish and surprised how many dead fish you have is not a adequate way to analyze a weapon.

As an IS pilot, I love ATM boats as one of the easiest KMDD's to get.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

ATM Supernovas are pretty easy to counter, at worst you might take one hit from them in their optimal range, but that gives you time to rush them. Issue is most people don't rush them.

[ROSS-128]

They're annoying when they hit in the "sweet spot" and happen to blow through an ST in a single volley, taking the arm with it and completely stripping the CT with transfer damage.

But that doesn't happen very often, so I guess I'd class them as strong enough to be an annoying gimmick, but not consistent enough to be OP.

[Bombast]

I wouldn't say ATMs are OP, but they're definitely one of those 'Fun Ruining' weapons, like Machine Guns. They're just not fun to get hit by, particularly if the firer managed to sneak up on you.

[OmniFail]

The6thMessenger, on 02 February 2018 - 12:05 AM, said:

So as i was shredding people with my ATM-48 Supernova, i just realized, i was doing 144 damage/volley, add 28 damage from my MPL too.

I get that it's close-range, at within 270m and 120m (safe number is around 150m), but still that's washing over people with 144 damage. I understand that it's literally 28 tons worth of weapons, that there's only a small band of range that it does this when the rest has actually okay damage, range which people that were able to boat en-masse in the first place wouldn't be able to do so with good speed alloted to their mechs.

But man, 144 damage being washed over someone at a close range? Isn't that disconcerting, shouldn't that be any least sequestered?

What are your thoughts about ATMs?

I seem to remember arguing with someone that had made a thread about LRMs being ineffective damage. Their whole argument seemed to revolve around spread damage as I recall. Hmm...

[Bombast]

OmniFail, on 02 February 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:

I seem to remember arguing with someone that had made a thread about LRMs being ineffective damage. Their whole argument seemed to revolve around spread damage as I recall. Hmm...

ATMs don't seem to spread nearly as bad as LRMs. You can eat several LRM80 volleys without suffering an armor breach, but get hit by ATMs at the wrong angle and you can lose an Arm or ST almost immediately.

Edited by Bombast, 02 February 2018 - 05:10 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bombast, on 02 February 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

ATMs don't seem to spread nearly as bad as LRMs. You can eat several LRM80 volleys without suffering an armor breach, but get hit by ATMs at the wrong angle and you can lose an Arm or ST almost immediately.

Well the idea is that LRM 80 is about half the damage of ATM48 in the sweet spot. Even though they have about the same spread one's doing much more per shot but is way shorter range and the ATMs are heavier with longer reloads and effected more by AMS.

[The6thMessenger]

OmniFail, on 02 February 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:

I seem to remember arguing with someone that had made a thread about LRMs being ineffective damage. Their whole argument seemed to revolve around spread damage as I recall. Hmm...

That was me, but it's more than just spread damage, and in the context of versus SRMs, that which you can't use it as well in brawling to isolate components simply because of the stream-fire. There are many factors why ATMs aren't good in brawling that makes SRMs obsolete for brawling if minimum range was removed.

This is just different, it's not about brawling, its about a weapon system doing a fuckton amount of damage within it's sweet spot that may be deemed to be unreasonable. You don't have to dance, get in and get out, just find a right spot to aim, even just bend your missiles -- that's farcry from just "brawling".

Likewise we already acknowledged that the damage was already too high before then, and pointed out that we need to reduce the damage in the first place to compensate for the removal of the minimum range, so our argument hinges on the hypothetical scenario in which this critique about the current system wouldn't equate to -- the 3 damage on the sweet-spot, versus the 2.4 damage on close-range without minimum range.

So the implied tone of "i told you so" is unfounded.

EDIT:

My bad.

I remember that argument, just not with you. It was with with Khobai, MischiefSC, QuicksilverKalasa on the PTS thread.

EDIT:

Now i remember.

https://mwomercs.com...efficient-kill/

That thread. It's about a new scoring system that judges the efficiency of the kill, something that solo kill does not indicate. It's not a balance thread, it's a suggestion thread.

Yeah that's farcry from the point of this thread, it's about the ATMs doing fuckton amount of damage, not whether it's inefficient. That means it could be used to pad match scores and in turn increase CBill incomes. If people are just watered down by ATMs even if they don't die it compromises their armor in the long run anyways. And other implications.

If 144 damage is distributed among the 3 torso, that's still 48 damage each of the torso versus 40 PPFLD of Gauss PPC -- of course they were linked together so that's no longer all at once. If 144 damage is distributed among 7 of the components, that's still around 20 damage each component, so even if it's not as efficient, that's still a lot of damage to consider.

Our argument is about you falsely equating SRMs are bad weapons because LRMs are spreadweapons just like SRMs, in which i explained that SRMs and LRMs (by extension ATMs) have different mechanics, in which SRMs have more capacity to be efficient.

That's really really really far about ATMs having immense damage, and could be unreasonable.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 February 2018 - 07:05 AM.

[Asym]

Bombast, on 02 February 2018 - 04:49 AM, said:

I wouldn't say ATMs are OP, but they're definitely one of those 'Fun Ruining' weapons, like Machine Guns. They're just not fun to get hit by, particularly if the firer managed to sneak up on you.

From your lips to PGI's ears Bombast...... Expect a nerf next patch. Anyway, what a waste of an Assault mech that's primary engagement range is dependant on a band of less than 300 meters to be effective.... I've seen Assaults boating ATM waddling around 7/8 of the game till they find the "perfect shot" while the rest of us were getting blasted to pieces.....

OP, no. Will get nerf'd soon, yes. Then what??? A new superstreak missle?

[The6thMessenger]

Asym, on 02 February 2018 - 07:00 AM, said:

OP, no. Will get nerf'd soon, yes. Then what??? A new superstreak missle?

Well, perhaps not OP. Although this consistency in terms of ranges is ugly to look at -- on one hand it's barely used at a range cause ammo-efficiency is low as ****, but close range it's a sledgehammer.

I wouldn't say that it's super streak -- it doesn't home on bones like streaks do. But I would prefer no minimum range, but with 2.4 - 1.6 damage, or even just 2.0 to 1.0 damage without minimum range. Add in velocity buff, or just missile buffs, and the ATMs are golden.

[Stinger554]

No they are not OP there are plenty of counter-play options available.

Staying out of that damage band which is easy for most mechs, AMS, and a minimum range that can be exploited.

Now if your a stupid light who decides to rush at an ATM boat and then run away and in turn get out of the minimum then I could see how one might think they were OP.

[The6thMessenger]

Stinger554, on 02 February 2018 - 07:07 AM, said:

Now if your a stupid light who decides to rush at an ATM boat and then run away and in turn get out of the minimum then I could see how one might think they were OP.

Granted, i was being nabbed with it as an Urbanmech. Although i don't call out "OP" till i actually used them and felt them to be easy. This came from me getting an SNV-A with ATM48 instead, granted there's a lot more mechs out there.

[Stinger554]

The6thMessenger, on 02 February 2018 - 07:15 AM, said:

Granted, i was being nabbed with it as an Urbanmech. Although i don't call out "OP" till i actually used them and felt them to be easy. This came from me getting an SNV-A with ATM48 instead, granted there's a lot more mechs out there.

Sorry wasn't directly meant for you just something I noticed while running ATM boats. Lights like to charge then into minimum then run away like......that's a fantastic idea...for the ATM boat.

I run Hero NCT with ATM36 for reference and I've seen that ATM SNV it's not difficult to deal with as I said there's plenty of counter play to it especially with a SNV which is slow AF.

[blood4blood]

Running numbers from the screen shot....
Red team = 4710 damage
Blue team = 5142 damage (and OP did nearly 1/3 of that solo)

I compared kills and assists, and it looks like both teams were focusing fire about equally (just over 6 assists per kill on each side). OP had 1543 damage, 4 kills, 2 assists. All those numbers together seem to show that ATM's spread damage a LOT. Given the damage spread and limited effective range, no, I don't think ATM's are OP at all.