77 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Give lights their quirks back? Revert rescale? Have you forgot the days of Oxides running rampant? 100% light queue? Timberwolves hiding under the rocks? Lights should scout and... and hit and run or something, probably, I dunno, I don't play them.

Edited by kapusta11, 09 May 2017 - 06:53 AM.

[Zigmund Freud]

Jingseng, on 09 May 2017 - 02:14 AM, said:

as long as players keep saying with conviction (however reluctantly, sincerely or not, expressed) that the game is only about blowing up robots, it will remain so.

Here is a player who has raised his voice calling for change.

And yet many continue to say "but it is not currently so" instead of adding their voice to the call.

Because there's various players in this game. There's no "middle" right now, people who want shooter complain about stupid objective oriented game modes, and people who want more diversity and tactical gamemodes complain about score systen that don't reward objective based gameplay. The only way to salvation is game modes checkboxes!

[Nesutizale]

Wouldn't we need for that more players?
Still kinda like the idea to select gamemodes at start so I can get rid of ***-ault.

Also wouldn't mind to reduce things to this

QP -> Skirmish, all day, done. Go in, shoot some people in 12v12, be done with it.
FW -> Asymetric gameplay (Siege) and Conquest. Because these are the two modes that I consider the most fun in FW.
Solaris -> 1v1 and 4v4 leagues. This is where people come to climb the leaderboards.

Edited by Nesutizale, 09 May 2017 - 02:54 AM.

[Requiemking]

kapusta11, on 09 May 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Give lights their quirks back? Revert rescale? Have you forgot the days of Oxides running rampant? 100% light queue? Timbervolves hiding under the rocks? Lights should scout and... and hit and run or something, probably, I dunno, I don't play them.

That was a general statement. As to which Lights get what quirks, that is unfortunately beyond our control. Besides, just because one variant was OP doesn't mean the entire weightclass has to suffer the disaster that is Volumetric Scaling.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 08 May 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

theres also the fact that PGI themselves tout MWO as the thinking man's shooter which implies they want it to be more than just "shooting" and "stomping".

That should be "thinking" required by all players, not just lights.

Khobai, on 08 May 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

by tying sensors together with dealing damage beyond optimum range, it adds more tactical depth to the game beyond simply putting your cursor over an enemy and pressing fire.

It doesn't add any depth just like LRMs requiring spotting doesn't magically add depth and just like LRMs, you are better off with a self-reliant mech that can get its own locks rather than relying on a light. Sorry, but that is a stupid dynamic for anything but artillery weapons. Now, if you want good mechanics, then look no further than mechanics like Zenyatta's Discord Orb from Overwatch, the pee jar the Sniper has in TF2, etc. It must be a unique boost specific to lights, must encourage all forms of damage, and also must somewhat easy to avoid. It must require more active play than "I PRESSED R GUYS!!!"

Khobai, on 08 May 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

shooting and stomping gets old pretty fast. the game needs more tactical depth.

People keep saying this, but I have yet to see most players even understand how to react appropriately to enemy body movement. So until that happens I would say the game has plenty of tactical depth.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 May 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[Zigmund Freud]

Nesutizale, on 09 May 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

Wouldn't we need for that more players?
Still kinda like the idea to select gamemodes at start so I can get rid of ***-ault.

Also wouldn't mind to reduce things to this

QP -> Skirmish, all day, done. Go in, shoot some people in 12v12, be done with it.
FW -> Asymetric gameplay (Siege) and Conquest. Because these are the two modes that I consider the most fun in FW.
Solaris -> 1v1 and 4v4 leagues. This is where people come to climb the leaderboards.

Probably we need more players, yea. But if now searching takes 1-5 seconds (usually), i'm ok with making it 30-60 seconds.
And I like all mods in QP, so I don't really like idea of making it all skirmish (which I like far less then other modes).

Besides, understand that checkboxes don't devide player population by 6 (as for 6 game modes). Most of players would check skirmish, so skirmish que wouldn't become longer. And a lot of people would check multiple game modes with 1-2 exeptions, so again, player pool for each mode wouldn't reduce too much.

[Grus]

The issue I have is mainly with the game design for light mech's.

If you wanted them to scout then you should have set the game up for them to be rewarded for that kind of play. I.e. locking targets and tag/narc for indirect fire. There are rewards for that in place now but the comparison to rewards for damage over all are better. Add to the fact that indirect fire (lrms for example) are underpowered and under used and not coordinated Leeds to low payout. If you have a good scout pilot and a good Lrm pilot they can be devastating. But if you're dropping solo that "jelling" is a rarity.

No LOS cover; think bushes. There are only a few maps that have foliage for small mech's to hide In (ecm) and not be seen. I'll the range of the tag laser to 1km and that would help.

Bring back knock down for light mechs.. or atlest a stumble.
When we had this in effect, There was WAY more hit and run at distant e with light mech's due to if you hit another mach then you were dead... No more lights face tanking at your feet. If you seen a lights at less than 100m they were either really good at piloting or running away after just smacking you.

If with this set up the light pilots will have to get better at dodging other mech's (better pilots) if they want to brawl. If they don't want to get close they will have to Bob in and out of LOS (better gunners). Combine the two with better pay out of supporting your team and being rewarded for said team dealing damage to your target, you'll get a very dangerous player on the field.

[Zigmund Freud]

@Grus
And also half the ammount of narc/tag bonus for lrm boats, and if all lrm damage is done by spotter himself. So people don't strap narc, tag and lrm5 for insta cash.

[Wintersdark]

Zigmund Freud, on 09 May 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

Probably we need more players, yea. But if now searching takes 1-5 seconds (usually), i'm ok with making it 30-60 seconds.
And I like all mods in QP, so I don't really like idea of making it all skirmish (which I like far less then other modes).

Besides, understand that checkboxes don't devide player population by 6 (as for 6 game modes). Most of players would check skirmish, so skirmish que wouldn't become longer. And a lot of people would check multiple game modes with 1-2 exeptions, so again, player pool for each mode wouldn't reduce too much.

It's not just matchmaking time. And while YOU may be ok with an order of magnetude increase in matchmaking times, that doesn't mean everyone is.

At peak time, sure, it's not going to be a huge problem. At non-peak times, though, where minute+ long matchmaking times are kinda normal now, it matters.

PGI isn't going to be ok with longer matchmaking, so you surrender match quality instead. You get more breakdown in weight classes, more PSR range (as much as that matters anymore anyways).

More significantly, the matches that "most" people disable? They get way worse. Oh, you want to play Escort? You may never see a match; just sit in the queue indefinitely.

---

We don't have player count to have people disallowing modes, or those modes become unplayable. It's literally better for the game as a whole to fully remove unpopular modes than allow people to disallow them, as when new players come and decide they want to play a given mode but never can, or that DO get into those modes but have far worse matchmaking as a result, their experience shapes their perspective of the whole game.




But that aside, you're making fundamental flaws in logic. You feel the people playing (for example) "Skirmish in a Conquest game" are doing it because they really like Skirmish.

This isn't the case. They're playing Skirmish in the Conquest game because simply killing your opposition is... wait for it....



The optimal path to winning the match.



Even if people could deselect game modes, they'd STILL END UP playing Skirmish in Conquest games simply because that's how you reliably win. Wanting fluffy objective based missions doesn't change that.

Until the game modes are changed sufficiently to make playing to the objective the superior path to victory, this will remain the case. Period.

[Grus]

Zigmund Freud, on 09 May 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

@Grus
And also half the ammount of narc/tag bonus for lrm boats, and if all lrm damage is done by spotter himself. So people don't strap narc, tag and lrm5 for insta cash.

Or just diminishing returns for bar. And taging same target. Lrm damage must be done by teammates to get bonus. You wanna narc one target and tag another? I'm ok with that. But not all on the same.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 09 May 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Until the game modes are changed sufficiently to make playing to the objective the superior path to victory, this will remain the case. Period.

Which is why just making respawns unlimited and making the objective the sole focus works so well (especially when the objective is indestructible and simply requires controlling the engagements either from a weaker position (CP maps, much like domination) or dynamically (payload maps, think better escort).

[Requiemking]

While the current discussion is good, don't forget that I proposed a second option as well guys.

[Zigmund Freud]

For me it's ok, so I would wait for game mode i want. For those who want to play whatever, but right now - they still can keep all modes enabled.
Checkboxes for tier 3 or higher? For people who know the game a bit, and have realistic expectations.
And if it's not peak time, and you want to play faster, you just take and check all game modes.

Yes, I understand that killing everybody is a valid path to victory. But I'm talking about when you get to play conquest and first 3 minutes of match is VoIP complains about how this mode is dumb, and how they hate little kids who just got from school and mass vote for it. Of course it continues later on, when complainers get killed, but stay in game to complain some more. And if for some reason you go and dogfight enemy light on some remote resource point, you get massively shat on you personally, for wasting their time. FFS. And don't get me started on escort.

It's pretty much the same in all old and/or dying online game (And lets face it MWO is a little bit of both). You either quickly play popular thing, or wait for unpopular thing. But it should be your choice. I don't want to make people play modes they don't like. But I also don't want the modes I like to get nuked, just because they are not so popular.

[Zigmund Freud]

Requiemking, on 09 May 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

While the current discussion is good, don't forget that I proposed a second option as well guys.

Post it here, mabe? At least a link? Unfortunately not many people visit that voting subforum often.

[Requiemking]

Zigmund Freud, on 09 May 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Post it here, mabe? At least a link? Unfortunately not many people visit that voting subforum often.

Its part of the OP. Option 1: buff Lights to be competitive with the other weightclasses via quirks buffs, Rescale reversion, and buffs to light-weight weapons such as the small laser and the SRM2.

[Zigmund Freud]

Requiemking, on 09 May 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Its part of the OP. Option 1: buff Lights to be competitive with the other weightclasses via quirks buffs, Rescale reversion, and buffs to light-weight weapons such as the small laser and the SRM2.

Yea, but I mean that poll in that voting subforum. It even have the same name as this thread. Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see a link here.

[Zigmund Freud]

Requiemking, on 09 May 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Its part of the OP. Option 1: buff Lights to be competitive with the other weightclasses via quirks buffs, Rescale reversion, and buffs to light-weight weapons such as the small laser and the SRM2.

As far as I understand, rescaling was done so that mech's volume represent it's tonnage. They can rerescale it back a little bit, but just a bit, so you could actually look at mech and kind of guess it's weight. (not like when nova just came out and was as huge as a ******* timber wolf. I was surprised when I find out it's only 45 t.
And wait for engine rebalancing. Maybe in a few weeks everything but lights will be slow as a dead turtle, so lights wil look better on that background.

[Requiemking]

Zigmund Freud, on 09 May 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

As far as I understand, rescaling was done so that mech's volume represent it's tonnage. They can rerescale it back a little bit, but just a bit, so you could actually look at mech and kind of guess it's weight. (not like when nova just came out and was as huge as a ******* timber wolf. I was surprised when I find out it's only 45 t.
And wait for engine rebalancing. Maybe in a few weeks everything but lights will be slow as a dead turtle, so lights wil look better on that background.

Except for the slight problem that arises when Volumetric Scaling absolutely ruins skinny mechs, such as the Panther, Wolfhound, Firestarter, Black Knight, Highlander, Executioner, Grasshopper, Piranha(I know this mech isn't in game, but it's a popular one that would get absolutely destroyed by Volumetric Scaling, and when I say destroyed, I mean Firestarter levels of ruin).