18 replies to this topic

[Dread Render]

There is really only Two ways to balance IS vs Clan.
1)
For every Clan mech you need an equal IS mech.
For Example:
Make the IS Marauder the same as the Clan Mad Cat. (just an example)
Make everything exactly the same but the way they look.
Repeat with all the other Mechs,

Yes this would mean only one version of weapons also.
No more IS Medium Lasers and Clan Medium laser, just one kind of Medium Laser.

Yes it would be a Major break from Lore, but if you really want balance...
again you could make the IS Lasers Look different from the Clan but they do the same thing.

2)
Start from scratch and Develop the two sides like Star Craft did...
Giving lots of though IN ADVANCE to balance for each Mech.
this is of course is how it should have been done in the first place.
This way (yes I know) would Also require a major break from Lore!

so...

this leaves us right were we are now.
With a big mess that can only be patched together with no real solution.

3, 2, 1 Flame on.

[Nesutizale]

1) Whats the point in just haveing another skin? Thats like playing a complete different game.

2) Yah they could have picked one of the many options players of the TT has come up with for ages...like BattleValue, different weight restrictings, different numbers of mechs on each side, adjusted pilot skills...bet there are more out there but these are the ones I used most of the time.

[El Bandito]

Sure, if you want the game to fail. Equal but different is a concept that can be done, without carbon copying.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Sure, if you want the game to fail. Equal but different is a concept that can be done, without carbon copying.

Like the isLPL VS Clam LPL
Both are useful weapons, but very different roles


Not like the isSmall Laser class
The isSL and isSPL are the better part of garbage
The cERSL is a useful weapon
The cSPL is the absolute best brawling laser in the game

That's NOT how you balance them
This is however how most of the Clam VS Spheroid equipment is balanced. Poorly

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 May 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Dread Render]

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Sure, if you want the game to fail. Equal but different is a concept that can be done, without carbon copying.

yes, that is option 2) like Star Craft
but that would require starting over.

[LordNothing]

initial clan pack was meant to be a deliberate power creep move in order to get people to drop hundreds of bucks on clan tech early. after years of quirkening and nerfs i kind of think that the balance with clan omni vs is battlemechs is ok. i think the big problem lies in clan battlemecs vs is battlemechs, or worse is omnis vs clan battlemech (when/if that ever becomes a thing).

the balance was supposed to be in numbers. clans were supposed to have fewer, but better mechs, while the is was meant to use inferior but more mechs. i think the only real way to fix the issue is 12 v 10, 3 lances vs 2 stars. you obviously cant do this, imagine the salt, also pgi wants to maximize server capabilities so running a couple mechs down in inefficient on server usage. so it reflects this in the tonnage difference. is it the best way? no. but it kind of works (and anyone who disagrees is a potato).

[Nameless King]

Dread Render, on 05 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

There is really only Two ways to balance IS vs Clan.
1)
For every Clan mech you need an equal IS mech.
For Example:
Make the IS Marauder the same as the Clan Mad Cat. (just an example)
Make everything exactly the same but the way they look.
Repeat with all the other Mechs,

Yes this would mean only one version of weapons also.
No more IS Medium Lasers and Clan Medium laser, just one kind of Medium Laser.

Yes it would be a Major break from Lore, but if you really want balance...
again you could make the IS Lasers Look different from the Clan but they do the same thing.

2)
Start from scratch and Develop the two sides like Star Craft did...
Giving lots of though IN ADVANCE to balance for each Mech.
this is of course is how it should have been done in the first place.
This way (yes I know) would Also require a major break from Lore!

so...

this leaves us right were we are now.
With a big mess that can only be patched together with no real solution.

3, 2, 1 Flame on.

Nope Failed concept

[Bud Crue]

You have missed a 3rd possibility. Use data to establish your baseline and make balance decisions. Consider frequency of play as well as match outcomes in your analysis of that data. Consider experienced player input in making decisions and encourage player based testing of any proposed change before it goes live. Be fully invested in your decisions by active and frequent play of the game and of those mechs to which the previously mentioned elements have suggested a change, so that you as much as the players, understand all the factors in play before making any change; and by that awareness you do proceed with changes that are educated, grounded and not totally out of left field.

That's a 3rd way they could balance the game. Of course a 4th way...the one using a dartboard...is apparently a lot easier.

[Wintersdark]

I've always wondered why they don't, if all else fails (and it seems to) just make tiny, incremental balance updates to the very lowest ranked mechs each month.

Hell, just take, say, 5 chassis, the 5 worst in the game, and buff each a little bit. Do this in every single patch, with the caveat that you've got a minimum of three months before you can address a chassis again (to ensure there's adequate new data to objectively rate how it is now).

Sure, that's profoundly slow. But it'd ensure those really atrocious chassis see constant improvement and unlike a lot of options won't create power creep - or at least not until the delta between worst and best is WAY WAY smaller than it is now, anyways.

This is, of course, not in replacement of regular balance passes, but something that should just happen all the time in the background.

[sycocys]

4th option - make Clan parts explode regardless of whether there is a case or not on the pod.

[Ruar]

Option 3- Take the existing metrics and data about mech performance. Determine the baseline of what mech's are considered to be behaving at the desired level. Adjust the mechs overperforming down and the ones that are underperforming up. This can be done through quirks, hard point size restrictions, and agility adjustments. Part of this can include player polls to see what the players think and incorporate that information as well.

They don't have to start from scratch on balance, they just have to figure out which mechs are considered balanced and then move others up or down the power curve to try and level things out. It will never be perfect but it can get a lot better.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

I've always wondered why they don't, if all else fails (and it seems to) just make tiny, incremental balance updates to the very lowest ranked mechs each month.

They cannot really do that as long as the base foundation between the techs are not in parity, specifically isXL vs cXL. It likely would work fine for Clan mechs but not for IS mechs. IS mechs would have to be overcompensated to take into account the fragility of the isXL. If based on STD engine then that is fewer or lighter/shorter range/less damage weapons, especially for those mechs that are not energy boats.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 05 May 2017 - 02:59 PM.

[El Bandito]

LordNothing, on 05 May 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

the balance was supposed to be in numbers. clans were supposed to have fewer, but better mechs, while the is was meant to use inferior but more mechs. i think the only real way to fix the issue is 12 v 10, 3 lances vs 2 stars. you obviously cant do this, imagine the salt, also pgi wants to maximize server capabilities so running a couple mechs down in inefficient on server usage. so it reflects this in the tonnage difference. is it the best way? no. but it kind of works (and anyone who disagrees is a potato).

Tonnage difference does not address balance in QP. Unless you wish everyone to bring Clan meta mechs.

And before you say it, IS only and Clan only queues will make queue time twice as long, so no bueno.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 May 2017 - 04:48 PM.

[R Valentine]

Only way for true balance: b**tch slap PGI 10,000 times.

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 05 May 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

4th option - make Clan parts explode regardless of whether there is a case or not on the pod.

0th option: Generic Stompy Robots.

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Tonnage difference does not address balance in QP. Unless you wish everyone to bring Clan meta mechs.

Who cares? It's Quick Play, also formerly known as "It is just temporary until we develop Community Warfare".

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Equal but different is a concept that can be done, without carbon copying.

It's been 5 freaking years already! And they're messing with balance again c/o the skill tree!

Kiran Yagami, on 05 May 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

Only way for true balance: b**tch slap PGI 10,000 times.

I generally don't approve of violence ... against someone I think does not deserve it anyway. Although I've been known to make exceptions.

Just starve them of funds.

Edited by Mystere, 05 May 2017 - 05:04 PM.

[LordNothing]

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Tonnage difference does not address balance in QP. Unless you wish everyone to bring Clan meta mechs.

And before you say it, IS only and Clan only queues will make queue time twice as long, so no bueno.

like qp matters lol. if only the match maker wasn't fixing games to keep your w/l at 1.

[El Bandito]

LordNothing, on 05 May 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

like qp matters lol. if only the match maker wasn't fixing games to keep your w/l at 1.

QP is where overwhelming majority of the population at. Of course it matters!

[LordNothing]

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

QP is where overwhelming majority of the population at. Of course it matters!

thats also ignoring the fact that qp uses mixtech teams. so in theory every team should have an even distribution in clan mechs. unfortunately were back to the psr auto-fixing thats going on. if the matchmaker wants you to loose, its going to stack everything against you.

[El Bandito]

LordNothing, on 05 May 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

thats also ignoring the fact that qp uses mixtech teams. so in theory every team should have an even distribution in clan mechs. unfortunately were back to the psr auto-fixing thats going on. if the matchmaker wants you to loose, its going to stack everything against you.

Even distribution of Clan mechs does nothing for the game, as IS mechs will be pushed out eventually. Do you want to see QP filled with Clan mechs only? Cause that's how you get QP filled with Clan mechs only.

Which means less variety, which means shorter lifespan for the game.