22 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Then saw Clans at 67%.

[El Bandito]

It was worse an hour before, so cheer up. I heard the mighty Clanners mostly play during NA time, so once they are asleep, the EU Spheroids will carry us. I have faith in you, TCAF!

But yeah, at least do some scouting for quick rewards.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 May 2017 - 09:22 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

It was worse an hour before, so cheer up. I heard the mighty Clanners mostly play during NA time, so once they are asleep, the EU Spheroids will carry us. I have faith in you, TCAF!

But yeah, at least do some scouting for quick rewards.

This is what happen last year only down side is the end stage is during the time when clans are most op.

[Athom83]

Got it backwards El Bandito. NA is asleep right now and its all the EU clanners out stomping everything.

[Koniving]

Unfortunately while everyone is focused on the quirks the IS have gotten and will soon have taken away....

....has no one else noticed the blanket buffs the Clans have received over the last two years when we screamed and pitched fits against negative quirks and against quirk reductions on mechs that PGI thinks is doing too good but we don't agree?

Base Clan weapon stats have been steadily improving. Their LPL got a heat reduction and a damage buff on two separate occasions. Beam times reduced. Their AC / UAC went from 2, 3, 4, and 5 shots for 2, 5, 10, and 20 classes to 1, 2, 3, and 4 for those classes increasing per shot damage from 1, 1.667, 2.5 and 4 to what is now 2, 2.5, 3.33 and 5 damage per bullet.

Cool down times for Clan missiles have received reductions.

All to make up for the IS quirks.

My concern is if PGI will remove these stealth/blanket buffs to Clans when they strip quirks off of the IS mechs.

[The6thMessenger]

Lol, i used to enjoy most movies as a kid. Then I learned physics and watched mythbusters.

Clan is so hot right now, with hotshot units running meta for the glory. The clantech balance discrepancy is real.

Come join the dark side if you want. There's tacos.

[Lances107]

Koniving I never took you for a one sided thought. You know as well as I do there is pluses and difficulties to both sides. You can talk about those buffs, but then to balance it you have to talk about the mass IS large laser advantage. Me buff comes and goes, as long as my mech is still whole it does not bother me. The only thing that erks me the most is the excessive heavy drop deck the IS gets, and the fact that sc was completely taking out of scouting. If we really wanted to a clan pro with all knowledge, and a IS pro with all knowledge of weapons could debate the entire thing. It would look like a massive exchange. You guys have this, but yes we have this but you have that advantage.

Last but not least its still early. The IS has Evil, 228, and HHoD. This is early clan winning for now, once those units get involved full swing. I highly doubt it will stay the way it is now. To be frank I have no idea what it will look like half way through the event.

[Koniving]

Lances107, on 05 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

Koniving I never took you for a one sided thought. You know as well as I do there is pluses and difficulties to both sides. You can talk about those buffs, but then to balance it you have to talk about the mass IS large laser advantage. Me buff comes and goes, as long as my mech is still whole it does not bother me. The only thing that erks me the most is the excessive heavy drop deck the IS gets, and the fact that sc was completely taking out of scouting. If we really wanted to a clan pro with all knowledge, and a IS pro with all knowledge of weapons could debate the entire thing. It would look like a massive exchange. You guys have this, but yes we have this but you have that advantage.

Last but not least its still early. The IS has Evil, 228, and HHoD. This is early clan winning for now, once those units get involved full swing. I highly doubt it will stay the way it is now. To be frank I have no idea what it will look like half way through the event.

Both sides got the large laser and large pulse laser buff.

Going from 10.6 and 11.6 to 11.6 and 13.6 (or whatever it is now) I also personally believe both sides get too much tonnage in their dropdecks.

(Also don't get me wrong; I ferverently believe IS has the most overpowered nonsense there is, though I recently discovered that when used on certain mechs, the Clans have their own version of the IS twin AC/20 one-shot-kills-everything build. Twin LB-20x on certain specific mechs produces what effectively is a single projectile up until a certain distance, thus allowing Clans to enjoy instantly killing anything and everything, too!

Hellbringer is one such mech.

But while the IS has been getting a myriad of publicly announced quirks and while sometimes the Clans got some quirks, the Clans have been getting numerous stat changes that are almost universally improvements -- as long as you ignore the significant drops in equipment health, engine penalties and so on.)

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 10:10 PM.

[Tarogato]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Unfortunately while everyone is focused on the quirks the IS have gotten and will soon have taken away....

....has no one else noticed the blanket buffs the Clans have received over the last two years when we screamed and pitched fits against negative quirks and against quirk reductions on mechs that PGI thinks is doing too good but we don't agree?

Base Clan weapon stats have been steadily improving. Their LPL got a heat reduction and a damage buff on two separate occasions. Beam times reduced. Their AC / UAC went from 2, 3, 4, and 5 shots for 2, 5, 10, and 20 classes to 1, 2, 3, and 4 for those classes increasing per shot damage from 1, 1.667, 2.5 and 4 to what is now 2, 2.5, 3.33 and 5 damage per bullet.

Cool down times for Clan missiles have received reductions.

Uhhh... quite the contrary.

First of all, wasn't the cLPL always 13 damage? And I don't remember it ever having its duration altered. The only change I know of in the past 3 years was when PGI nuked its maxrange like 6 or 8 months ago.

Second, the Clan AC shell count was changed soooooooooooo long ago (two years? at least?) that the current state is pretty much a long standing status quo, and it's been fine. It's a bit pointless to reference changes that occurred over two years ago when the meta environment has changed so much since then. A more relevant comment on the recent state of Clan AC's is when PGI reshuffled all of their jam chances and jam durations in Nov. 2016, and they turned the balance pretty much completely upside down. The UAC2 was crap, and the UAC10 was the best, and the UAC20 was okay. But with the new changes, the UAC2 is now the best, the UAC10 is meh, and the UAC20 is utter crap and not even worth equipping without crazy jam chance quirks. Not to mention introduction of UAC10 ghost heat.

Third, when were Clan SRM cooldowns buffed? Was that two years ago as well?


If you wanna talk about blanket changes to the Clans, look at what happened to the cXL side torso loss, look at what happened to cER laser ranges, look what happened to cGauss. They've been getting constantly hammered with NERFS, not buffs. And yet they still outperform IS.

[Juodas Varnas]

Clans at 100%, wooo!

[Vonbach]

Juodas Varnas, on 06 May 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

Clans at 100%, wooo!

Just remember there is no balance problem. lol

[Lances107]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

Both sides got the large laser and large pulse laser buff.

Going from 10.6 and 11.6 to 11.6 and 13.6 (or whatever it is now) I also personally believe both sides get too much tonnage in their dropdecks.

(Also don't get me wrong; I ferverently believe IS has the most overpowered nonsense there is, though I recently discovered that when used on certain mechs, the Clans have their own version of the IS twin AC/20 one-shot-kills-everything build. Twin LB-20x on certain specific mechs produces what effectively is a single projectile up until a certain distance, thus allowing Clans to enjoy instantly killing anything and everything, too!

Hellbringer is one such mech.

But while the IS has been getting a myriad of publicly announced quirks and while sometimes the Clans got some quirks, the Clans have been getting numerous stat changes that are almost universally improvements -- as long as you ignore the significant drops in equipment health, engine penalties and so on.)

I can not deny the truth of the LBX 20, especially when two are attached to a kodiak three. I can not deny that the IS does not have a equivalent basaltic platform with two upper torso mounts. Though the LBX says nothing about close range being the kill shot, just about every clan pilot knows that it is. I have used this weapon to great effect, no not on a kodiak, but a summoner. The funny thing is, I was glad to hear the IS was getting some of these weapons, but then the devs said they were going to weigh more. This kinda of confused me, but then again we do not yet know the size of the IS LBX 20, and it might be possible to stick this bad boy on a couple of Atlas mechs. Not two, but I am decently sure at least one. The other thing about the LBX 20 is it is highly ammo restrictive. Even with a couple tons of ammo, you only get a few shots. As for the drop decks, I understand the lore behind the choice of tons, but they may be better off just slotting the drop decks. Meaning you can bring say one assault, two heavies, and or one light/medium. It certainly would change things up.

[Imperius]

Vonbach, on 06 May 2017 - 04:35 AM, said:

Just remember there is no balance problem. lol

You're right there isn't a balance issue! Just bad IS pugs that can't accept losing so blame they game instead of themselves.

Edited by Imperius, 06 May 2017 - 06:02 AM.

[Novakaine]

We should call this.........
The Great Tukie Turkey Shoot III

Edited by Novakaine, 06 May 2017 - 05:50 AM.

[Antares102]

Lances107, on 06 May 2017 - 04:48 AM, said:

... but then again we do not yet know the size of the IS LBX 20...

We know the size of an IS LB20-X from here since PGI does not fiddle with tons/slots
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_20-X_AC

It will 14 tons and 11 slots.

[Koniving]

Tarogato, on 06 May 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

Uhhh... quite the contrary.

First of all, wasn't the cLPL always 13 damage? And I don't remember it ever having its duration altered. The only change I know of in the past 3 years was when PGI nuked its maxrange like 6 or 8 months ago.

Second, the Clan AC shell count was changed soooooooooooo long ago (two years? at least?) that the current state is pretty much a long standing status quo, and it's been fine. It's a bit pointless to reference changes that occurred over two years ago when the meta environment has changed so much since then. A more relevant comment on the recent state of Clan AC's is when PGI reshuffled all of their jam chances and jam durations in Nov. 2016, and they turned the balance pretty much completely upside down. The UAC2 was crap, and the UAC10 was the best, and the UAC20 was okay. But with the new changes, the UAC2 is now the best, the UAC10 is meh, and the UAC20 is utter crap and not even worth equipping without crazy jam chance quirks. Not to mention introduction of UAC10 ghost heat.

Third, when were Clan SRM cooldowns buffed? Was that two years ago as well?


If you wanna talk about blanket changes to the Clans, look at what happened to the cXL side torso loss, look at what happened to cER laser ranges, look what happened to cGauss. They've been getting constantly hammered with NERFS, not buffs. And yet they still outperform IS.

All Clan weapons started at stock tabletop values, except the LPL and large laser which began at 11 damage and 11 respectively (to account for the IS having 9 and 10 damage instead of 8 and 9, meaning that while the IS got +1, the Clans got +1 and the IS had +1 for damage). The medium and small lasers for the Clans also had +1 heat to each to accommodate the IS having +1 heat to each.

Clan heat for the ER large and LPL was also 10 when first released in the summer of 2014. I have videos of pre-release Public Test footage as well as when they first came out.

Clan ER medium lasers used to be 1.25 seconds long, Clan ER Large Lasers started at 1.6 seconds long. Now they are 1.15 seconds and 1.5 seconds respectively.
Clan large and medium pulses were 1.25 and 1 second long beam times, now they are 1.12 and 0.85 respectively.

Clan smalls have gone unchanged. They are also the most incessantly quirked.

Now, when IS got 10.6 damage to their LPLs, the Clan LPL went to 11.6. Keep in mine Clan LPL and ER LL are supposed to be identical in damage, unlike the IS.

IS LPL damage is now 11 (+2 above tabletop and -0.6 from the last patch to change them), Clan LPL is now 13 (+3 above tabletop and -0.6 from last time, but up by +0.4 from the time before that where the IS is still below what they had on that patch [meaning it's just been dropped down hill for the last two patches while the Clans have gone up then down but are still higher than two patches ago.])

ER Large and Large Pulse for the Clans began at 10 heat, then went to 11, then 12, then 11 and now they're at 10 again.

Clan MPL heat is up to 2 units above tabletop, but this is where it started, though at one point the ER ML and MPL reached 7 heat during the height of the laser vomits. (For the IS, matching MPL and ML heat makes the MPL a buff. For the Clans matching the ER ML and MPL heat makes the MPL a nerf).

The Clan ECM counter from ER PPCs was buffed by 1 second (though I see the IS counter from ER PPCs is buffed by 4 seconds, while the IS PPC as inferior counter ECM ability compared to both sides' ER PPC (but is still at the stock 6 seconds that it has been since early 2016).

The list goes on.

Clan SRMs used to have "x.5" for their times, now it's flat 2, 3 and 4.
Clan missiles, the smaller ones have gone up in time (for all sides), the larger ones have gone down so that everything is below 5 seconds (Clan LRM-20 used to be almost 6 seconds to wait for it to reload).

SRM heat is down across the board. But now ghost heat's more of a ****.

Clan streak times are done but they've been down for over a year now.

It's been up and down, but for a long tme the LPL was 10.6 for IS and 11.6 for Clans.
Now the IS has 11 for LPL damage but Clans have 13 for LPL damage...

Laser vomit much?

[Monkey Lover]

Juodas Varnas, on 06 May 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

Clans at 100%, wooo!

Ya saw this few hours ago, guess Eu saving us isn't going to happen lol

Edited by Monkey Lover, 06 May 2017 - 06:24 AM.

[Koniving]

Lances107, on 06 May 2017 - 04:48 AM, said:

I can not deny the truth of the LBX 20, especially when two are attached to a kodiak three. I can not deny that the IS does not have a equivalent basaltic platform with two upper torso mounts. Though the LBX says nothing about close range being the kill shot, just about every clan pilot knows that it is. I have used this weapon to great effect, no not on a kodiak, but a summoner. The funny thing is, I was glad to hear the IS was getting some of these weapons, but then the devs said they were going to weigh more. This kinda of confused me, but then again we do not yet know the size of the IS LBX 20, and it might be possible to stick this bad boy on a couple of Atlas mechs. Not two, but I am decently sure at least one. The other thing about the LBX 20 is it is highly ammo restrictive. Even with a couple tons of ammo, you only get a few shots. As for the drop decks, I understand the lore behind the choice of tons, but they may be better off just slotting the drop decks. Meaning you can bring say one assault, two heavies, and or one light/medium. It certainly would change things up.

All IS versions of LBX weapons weigh more than Clan versions.

LB-2X weighs identical to an AC/2 and is 3 more slots (compared to IS AC/2)

LB-5x weighs identical to an AC/5. and is 1 more slot. (compared to IS AC/5)

LB-10x weighs one ton less than an AC/10 and is 1 less slot. (compared to IS AC/10) It generates 1 less heat than the AC/10.

LB-20x weighs the same and is one slot larger than the AC/20. It generates 1 less heat than the AC/20.

The reasoning is the source material and the source weights. All IS LB-X weapons feature longer range over their IS AC counterparts.

LB-10x and LB-20x are colder on purpose, this is because these weapons canonically fire significantly fewer shells than their AC counterparts of similar calibers (though these shells are packed with more umph to go farther and faster) So while an 120mm (highest common caliber of all non-2 ACs) might fire 3 shells for an AC/5 (GM Whirlwind/5), 6 for an AC/10, 12 for an AC/20 (Death Giver from Storms of Fate, Armstrong from Binding Force), a 120mm Defiance Disintegrator LB-20x from Patriots and Tyrants fires 6 cannister shots in succession at one and a half per second (so 4 seconds to spend the cassette before reloading). That's half as many shells.

LB-X seems to be a cross between an AC (explosive automatic cannons mounted on real life IFVs such as this, which is the same caliber as the IS AC/2 mounted on the Blackjack [the Whirlwind/L] and requires 10 shots to net the rated damage ) and a Mech Rifle (which is based on main battle tank cannons of the 21st century, such as this 120mm Smoothbore cannon on the M1 Abrams)

Which that Caliber fits with a Medium Rifle, and would get 6 damage against targets with a BAR of 7 or less, 6 damage against any structure, but would only get 3 damage against Battlemechs and tanks with standard armor which by default have a BAR of 10. (A medium rifle is only 5 tons, it's significantly larger shell generates 2 heat instead of one, however.)

Here's a 120mm Autocannon for comparison. They show two feed types, what Battletech considered cassettes (they load a magazine that holds X and keep topping it up; in Bt it just swaps them out) and later they have it belt fed. If you go to several seconds before where I have it start, you can see a Mech Rifle in action for one or two shots (huge shells) Before that, you'll see a heavy MG.

Of course, MWO has its own chosen aesthetic. Which is a shame, though it's never happened in a Mechwarrior game, LB-X is originally described as a cluster munition, which means they all go boom after splitting from the original shell. Flashy booms. At least according to older lore, newer ones seem to just oversimplify the "shotgun" aspect.

[Tarogato]

Koniving, on 06 May 2017 - 06:08 AM, said:

All Clan weapons started at stock tabletop values, except the LPL and large laser which began at 11 damage and 11 respectively (to account for the IS having 9 and 10 damage instead of 8 and 9, meaning that while the IS got +1, the Clans got +1 and the IS had +1 for damage). The medium and small lasers for the Clans also had +1 heat to each to accommodate the IS having +1 heat to each.

Clan heat for the ER large and LPL was also 10 when first released in the summer of 2014. I have videos of pre-release Public Test footage as well as when they first came out.

Clan ER medium lasers used to be 1.25 seconds long, Clan ER Large Lasers started at 1.6 seconds long. Now they are 1.15 seconds and 1.5 seconds respectively.
Clan large and medium pulses were 1.25 and 1 second long beam times, now they are 1.12 and 0.85 respectively.

Clan smalls have gone unchanged. They are also the most incessantly quirked.

Now, when IS got 10.6 damage to their LPLs, the Clan LPL went to 11.6. Keep in mine Clan LPL and ER LL are supposed to be identical in damage, unlike the IS.

IS LPL damage is now 11 (+2 above tabletop and -0.6 from the last patch to change them), Clan LPL is now 13 (+3 above tabletop and -0.6 from last time, but up by +0.4 from the time before that where the IS is still below what they had on that patch [meaning it's just been dropped down hill for the last two patches while the Clans have gone up then down but are still higher than two patches ago.])

ER Large and Large Pulse for the Clans began at 10 heat, then went to 11, then 12, then 11 and now they're at 10 again.

Clan MPL heat is up to 2 units above tabletop, but this is where it started, though at one point the ER ML and MPL reached 7 heat during the height of the laser vomits. (For the IS, matching MPL and ML heat makes the MPL a buff. For the Clans matching the ER ML and MPL heat makes the MPL a nerf).

The Clan ECM counter from ER PPCs was buffed by 1 second (though I see the IS counter from ER PPCs is buffed by 4 seconds, while the IS PPC as inferior counter ECM ability compared to both sides' ER PPC (but is still at the stock 6 seconds that it has been since early 2016).

The list goes on.

Clan SRMs used to have "x.5" for their times, now it's flat 2, 3 and 4.
Clan missiles, the smaller ones have gone up in time (for all sides), the larger ones have gone down so that everything is below 5 seconds (Clan LRM-20 used to be almost 6 seconds to wait for it to reload).

SRM heat is down across the board. But now ghost heat's more of a ****.

Clan streak times are done but they've been down for over a year now.

It's been up and down, but for a long tme the LPL was 10.6 for IS and 11.6 for Clans.
Now the IS has 11 for LPL damage but Clans have 13 for LPL damage...

Laser vomit much?

Yeah, this is all well and good, but I'm pretty sure all these changes you're talking about happened two years ago. Not really relevant today, when the meta has been established and shifted several times, and stuff like cLPL damage hasn't changed at all in that time. It's been 13 for as long as I can remember.

Saying "clans have been being buffed" and saying "clan weapons are stronger than they should be" is two different things. The first one isn't true at all, and it's the one you seem to be convinced of.

[Koniving]

Tarogato, on 06 May 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

Yeah, this is all well and good, but I'm pretty sure all these changes you're talking about happened two years ago. Not really relevant today, when the meta has been established and shifted several times, and stuff like cLPL damage hasn't changed at all in that time. It's been 13 for as long as I can remember.

Saying "clans have been being buffed" and saying "clan weapons are stronger than they should be" is two different things. The first one isn't true at all, and it's the one you seem to be convinced of.

The LPL happened in March (heat reduct). Last Damage change in November. Prior to that the last change it had was in February last year.

the Autocannons happened last year.

Beamtimes within the last 6 9 months. 9 months not 6. I have evidence of them existing 7 months ago but definitely not August last year, therefore it cannot be more than 9 months back.

Edited by Koniving, 06 May 2017 - 03:26 PM.