279 replies to this topic

[Athom83]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 06 May 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

I'll just reiterate my engine balance proposal here:
Eliminate ST death entirely. Use the cXL as the baseline. It acts just like it does now except no ST death.
XL gets +10% health to torso structure to compensate for having fewer available critical slots (the shielding is bulkier and more robust than cXL).
LFE gets +20% health to torso structure because it weighs so much more than the cXL.
STD gets +50% health to torso structure because it weighs way more than the other options.
Obviously, numbers are subject to change, but the theme remains and keeps all engines relevant.

No, powercreap. Simply nerf cXL by adding more penalties (like my weapon penalty I suggested earlier).

[Jay Leon Hart]

Athom83, on 06 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

No, powercreap. Simply nerf cXL by adding more penalties (like my weapon penalty I suggested earlier).

The only penalty comparable to death, is death. So do you want;
Clans to keep engine superiority?
Clan XL to die to ST loss?
Other engines buffed to compete?

Only one of those options is a good choice.

[CanadianCyrus]

I vote for Mixed tech IS mechs. However instead of letting IS just add Clan tech roughshod, add a "coversion point" system where for each piece of clan tech added to the mech, it costs points. Lets say you get 10 conversion points max for a mech, Clan XL costs 8 points, Heatsinks costs 3, Large energy costs 2, and medium/small energy 1, and so on. You have to unlock each specific weapon, for instance if you want clan ER Mediums and Medium Pulses that's 2 Conversion points instead of just unlocking "Medium weapons" for 1 point. Also only tech that exists between the two factions can be converted, this means no Heavy Lasers or ATMs.

In the Skill tree it costs 7 SP to unlock a single conversion point, this way it's a matter of trade off, Skill Tree quirks vs added Clan Tech and also the 21 points (if all 10 conversion points are unlocked) of Skill Tree quirks won't affect the added Clan tech. *Can't remember if it's a max of 91 SP points or something different so I based it on 91 max SP*

Obviously the point values are just thrown out there, but this way there's a substantial cost to mixed tech, and IS SP quirks will not affect any equipped clan tech. Will it likely just be a case of most if not all IS mechs equipped with Clan XLs in FP? Probably but at the end of the day that's more or less what people in this thread want IS XL to be anyway. This way Clan mechs still have an edge in Quirks vs IS Mixed Tech and still have sole access to unique clan tech (ATMs, Heavy Lasers, etc).

Edited by Funzo, 06 May 2017 - 09:49 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 May 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

So ignore the LFE exists - BOOM! Fixed.

unless say you want to pilot something with an ac20 in the torso...and a lighter engine.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Athom83, on 06 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

No, powercreap. Simply nerf cXL by adding more penalties (like my weapon penalty I suggested earlier).

How is it power creep? It affects all mechs, new or old, in exactly the same way.

[FireStoat]

Inner Sphere XL shouldn't have caused death upon a torso loss since day one. Table top rules had the balance that was present out of the fact that random hit location charts were used. Using the same destruction rules from there in a game where you can aim your shot is simply asinine.

Stop and consider for a moment all the other areas of balance involving weapon values as well as weapon / structure / armor quirks that could have been eliminated simply because engine parity would have been a thing. It's just demented that PGI took the route that they did.

[MauttyKoray]

Sjorpha, on 06 May 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

Why should ANY of the IS engines be inferior to Clan XL at all?

I have yet to see a coherent answer to that question.

Even suggestions like the OP still proposes that it should have higher penalties in addition to being larger, so worse than clan XL in 2 ways but not better in any way, how does that make any sense? If balance is the goal it should have lower penalties to compensate for the larger size.

Clan also get a penalty upon ST loss.

I think as long as they keep the LFE from having a ST loss penalty, it should prove valuable. Or at the very most if they do give it a ST loss penalty like the Clan XL, it needs to be a very minor one, at maybe 25-33% that of the Clan XL penalty.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, powercreap. Simply nerf cXL by adding more penalties (like my weapon penalty I suggested earlier).

The problem with nerfing CXL is that clans have no alternative to CXL.

Youre nerfing their only option into the ground. Which will just make people quit the game.

[Alan Davion]

Khobai, on 06 May 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

The problem with nerfing CXL is that clans have no alternative to CXL.

Youre nerfing their only option into the ground. Which will just make people quit the game.

Clanners need their crutches yo.

Remember the s***storm they stirred up when PGI tried to stealth nerf the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow back during the Phoenix Rising event?

Everything is fine and dandy for them when IS mechs get bludgeoned with the nerf bat, but try and reduce their effectiveness by even 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% and watch them lose their flipping minds.

Edited by Alan Davion, 06 May 2017 - 11:33 AM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 06 May 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

The problem with nerfing CXL is that clans have no alternative to CXL.

Youre nerfing their only option into the ground. Which will just make people quit the game.

lol, if you're claiming Clan XL is in a bad state, I suggest you look at the long list of Clan Mechs that are used in comp play. Poor Clams.

[Baulven]

The main problems is that lore based balances don't make a fun video game (i.e. one on one fights, numbers vs superior Tech, etc) so it needs to be fixed so the game is fun. I am a big tabletop enthusiast but I can't say that XL disparity is good for the game. There needs to be a change to make the tech gap smaller, and that is either giving IS full RAC5 aka up to 30 damage per trigger pull from a single device or addressing the other issues that are present. So the option is either to drive TTK into the ground or to fix the things that should have never existed in a video game

[Baulven]

How to balance the options

Clan XL (60% reduction on ST loss)
IS XL (50% reduction on ST loss)
IS LFE (25% reduction on ST loss) +5 structure per ST +8 CT +15% accel/decel
Standard +10 ST +15 CT +25% accel/decel

Or just accept that standards will be pointless after the XL change except for niche builds give IS XL dual ST kill and call it a day. Granted structure and armor buffs will need to come off everything if that happens.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 06 May 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

When you drop against good CW players, you realize just how handicapping IS XL is.

It's true
Some resorted to Gen Rushing, while I 1 shot their rCT with my LOLpha-Rauder
6ERML
2LPL
29 DHS

Like the old Timby build...but badder. It's not ALL it used to be, but still deadly within 500M


I would almost like to try the Sphere side, just to see what happens when you remove Potato
BMaster 2C
BMaster 2C
Dragon 1C
Spider 5K

LPL galore (maybe ERLL Dragon)
No LBx
No LRMs
Many LPLs (one of the few good Spheroid weapons)
Many Quirks (seriously, LOOK at that Dragon!)

Khobai, on 06 May 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

Except the whole point of asymmetrical balance is that you dont need to make all IS engines equal to CXL

As long as clans have an entirely different disadvantage to balance it out.

For example IS being able to use C3 and share sensor information. But clans not being able to use C3 and not be able to share sensor information. That couldve been one way to help balance IS vs Clans asymmetrically.

Asym balance would make having the isXL give ST bonuses to make the HP similar for removing 2 Clam STs VS removing a SINGLE Spheroid ST

IE, BlackKnight VS Timby
188 HP (2 rear armor) to double ST the Timby (cXL) VS the unquirked 94 HP on the BK (quirked at +12, or 106 right now)

188 VS 106...well, look at that. A massive imbalance

Give the BK STs +30 with an isXL, and suddenly he is much more powerful, and less likely to be instagibbed.
However, he still only has 124/136 HP to die, to the 188 of the Timby. Unless he twists effectively


That's a potential Asym balance choice, making the isXL be MORE durable than the cXL, IF they twist effectively. A higher skill floor AND ceiling
That's retaining the one side to die, but making it more durable nonetheless

Annoyingly durable, almost.
But give no CT bonuses to the isXL, give that (and more) to the STD engine

[Y E O N N E]

I always did say the DRG-1C was pretty competent...

[Athom83]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 06 May 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

How is it power creep? It affects all mechs, new or old, in exactly the same way.

By making everything slightly better again and again is powercreep. Just because it affects everything doesn't mean it isn't.

Khobai, on 06 May 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

The problem with nerfing CXL is that clans have no alternative to CXL.
Youre nerfing their only option into the ground. Which will just make people quit the game.

You seem to be forgetting something called Standard Engine. They exist too. If you wan't to run an XL, there needs to be meaningful drawback. Currently there isn't enough of a drawback for cXL compared to everything else. The whole "only option" thought is the reason it should be nerfed in some way to make the other option more appealing without creating powercreep.

[Mcgral18]

Athom83, on 06 May 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

By making everything slightly better again and again is powercreep. Just because it affects everything doesn't mean it isn't.


You seem to be forgetting something called Standard Engine. They exist too. If you wan't to run an XL, there needs to be meaningful drawback. Currently there isn't enough of a drawback for cXL compared to everything else. The whole "only option" thought is the reason it should be nerfed in some way to make the other option more appealing without creating powercreep.

Clam Omnis cannot change engine
I'd say their penalty is roughly fair where it is

It hurts, but it still very powerful

Use that as the baseline, where it's still enjoyable to use, and not overly punishing.
You'd Buff TTK overall if you use that as a baseline, which wouldn't be a bad thing either.



Power Creep which increases durability isn't the typical power creep, which decreases TTK

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Athom83, on 06 May 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

By making everything slightly better again and again is powercreep. Just because it affects everything doesn't mean it isn't.

Even if I allow that your definition stands, it isn't really relevant. Balance is more important than a perception of increased power, and in this case any power increase is a defensive one that also addresses some underlying, pervasive, and persistent issues with current and projected future game play. If a small measure of overall power increase is the cost of significantly improving the health of the game, I see no downside.

[Khobai]

Quote

lol, if you're claiming Clan XL is in a bad state, I suggest you look at the long list of Clan Mechs that are used in comp play. Poor Clams.

but youre talking about nerfing Clan XL again.

thats not acceptable when its your only engine choice, omnimechs cant change engines remember, and STD engines suck. nobody wants their only option to be a nerfed piece of garbage.

im not saying ISvClan doesnt need to be balanced better, but nerfing CXL more is the wrong way to do it. Again assymetrical balance means clans can be better at some things while IS can be better at others. CXL is an advantage for Clans. IS needs their own advantage to balance it out.

Edited by Khobai, 06 May 2017 - 04:35 PM.

[R Valentine]

Aidan Kell, on 06 May 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

What you're suggesting would nullify and render obsolete the LFE before it even becomes available as an option in July.

The entire system renders LFE obsolete, because the system it's supposed to be based on requires an engine critical system of which PGI knows not of. Without an engine crit systems, either IS will always be garbage because of either side torso death or inferior firepower tonnage(when IS weapons already weigh more) or LFEs will always be obsolete because balance essentially demands IS XL doesn't kill you on side torso loss. Either way, LFE was always the stupidest way of attempting to balance this debacle. They should have gotten rid of side torso death a long time ago.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 06 May 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

but youre talking about nerfing Clan XL again.

I have not actually. I'm fine with the current nerfs. What needs to happen now is STD and IS XL need buffs. What those buffs is another matter (added structure is ideal IMO).