39 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

Xetelian, on 08 May 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

Sure, that's the idea but the actuality is that we lose 1/4th of our team coming out for cover due to PPC/Gauss NTGs and WHK and cERLL EBJ and TBR.



The only reason we've won 2 games out of the last 3 was because we didn't let them strip us at range, which is really all the IS can do when facing an all sniper team.


Constantly arguing with people who want to leave cover is bad for the team in a lot of ways.

If you're defending with Battlemasters with 5-6 ERLL and Grasshoppers 5P with 5ERLL on Boreal, you're doing it wrong (unless you have a 12 man dedicated brawl deck and sit right inside the gate and full brawl push the gate the moment they show ala ISEN style.)

[Xetelian]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 08 May 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you're defending with Battlemasters with 5-6 ERLL and Grasshoppers 5P with 5ERLL on Boreal, you're doing it wrong (unless you have a 12 man dedicated brawl deck and sit right inside the gate and full brawl push the gate the moment they show ala ISEN style.)

No one seems to be bringing long range weapons on IS side. I see 5 LPL not 5 ERLL. On Boreal you can snipe from close to the gens or of they go alpha just wait for them to come in single file.


I don't see the point of exposing yourself to ranged weapons when most of your team if not ALL of them are brawlers.



I don't mind pushing when we have an advantage, there is a way of being aggressive and winning but with the Gauss/PPC meta mechs running around you lose a lot of armor while closing in to brawl.




Only mech I've seen with an ERLL was a RVN 4X and he got sniped after a couple pokes.

[Albino Boo]

IS isn't losing becasue of Gauss/ERPPC they losing because they are passive and back up all the time. If you hide in the buildings you will be spread out and die one by one. Your team sits passively while the other team moves and kills. Its not an unknown fault in clan pugs but more common in IS ones

[Xetelian]

Albino Boo, on 08 May 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

IS isn't losing becasue of Gauss/ERPPC they losing because they are passive and back up all the time. If you hide in the buildings you will be spread out and die one by one. Your team sits passively while the other team moves and kills. Its not an unknown fault in clan pugs but more common in IS ones

Says the merc riding on CSJ's nutz.

[Vxheous]

Xetelian, on 08 May 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

No one seems to be bringing long range weapons on IS side. I see 5 LPL not 5 ERLL. On Boreal you can snipe from close to the gens or of they go alpha just wait for them to come in single file.


I don't see the point of exposing yourself to ranged weapons when most of your team if not ALL of them are brawlers.



I don't mind pushing when we have an advantage, there is a way of being aggressive and winning but with the Gauss/PPC meta mechs running around you lose a lot of armor while closing in to brawl.




Only mech I've seen with an ERLL was a RVN 4X and he got sniped after a couple pokes.

Most times when teams defend on the Boreal platform, they lose, due to the fact that if you lose your mechs on the platform as defenders, you are basically automatically spawn camped/choked/gens lost. If the defending team is full of brawlers, mid range, best thing is to fight them at the gate. Set up the team right between the gates, and W key into them the moment they come through the gate (basically choking them at the gate). This also allows re-dropping defenders to be able to regroup and get out of the spawn, back onto the platform to defend any that lived through the gate brawl. Use the long terrain as a defending advantage, stretch out the opposition. Sure, you might still lose due to fighting a better team, but if you fight at the gates, and not at the platform, I can almost guarantee you won't get spawn camped.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 08 May 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[Ryllen Kriel]

Dakota1000, on 08 May 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

Why would anyone push while defending?

What's with so many people in MWO saying to push all the time anyway? Cover is pretty useful and trading is better than running into a firing line.

I agree with you except in one case where the group I was in last night had to push on defence because the servers were going down for maintenance in ten minutes but we had about sixteen minutes left on the clock. The people on offense we fought were trying to turtle to draw out the game so they would not lose. Luckily our group had decent teamwork so we push out several times for a win.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Dakota1000, on 08 May 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

and trading is better than running into a firing line.

Trading with a Clanner



I'm not falling for that trick

[Vxheous]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 08 May 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Trading with a Clanner



I'm not falling for that trick

You think it's a trick, but it's actually good advice. I trade just fine against clans using LPL/ML builds, or ERLL builds, all of which use IS XL. You just have to position well, twist well, and shoot well (which is all the aspects of proper trading)

I've played IS almost as much as I've played Clans:

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 08 May 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[Xetelian]

Yeah, you might run an XL and 5 ERLL but can you poptart like a NTG and a HBK IIC?


The idea is that PUG groups don't listen and bring mixed load-outs that are good for neither long range nor brawling.

When against an organized unit you might as well press K K K K and Disconnect.

I've seen some Frankenstein's monster builds that include LBX10 and LRMs on the same mech.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 08 May 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

Why would anyone push while defending?

What's with so many people in MWO saying to push all the time anyway? Cover is pretty useful and trading is better than running into a firing line.

Trading against Clan alphas when defending Boreal gens, behind buildings is generally a bad idea. Better to stay in cover until they get close and flank them using a side push.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 May 2017 - 04:59 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Xetelian, on 08 May 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

Faction war is tough, we got defense on Boreal so we hide in the builds and slaughter them as they try to push the generators.


Next time same situation and we try to hold the buildings but people are complaining and asking us to push. We lose by 9 mechs, 9 that pushed and threw away the win.


Then we get another game defense and we win again.




The pugs are the most frustrating part, we're only dropping in a 4 man.



Sniper clan mechs are all over these games and you can't do anything but wait until they converge on you because you'll lose half your mech to PPC/Gauss in one peek.

KCom is probably the most push oriented team in the game and we're pretty good at it.

However, defending Boreal, we will still wait until we're ahead on kills or the enemy is in a bad position before pushing.

Staying in the buildings isn't that good an idea however because a good team will corner you out. You're surrendering the initiative. Start on the middle hills or even forward in the space between the gates. Even mediocre pugs can beat a slightly above average team in a brawl if the team came in set for range and you're set for brawl.

If the ranged team gets into the pocket where the turret is in the trench and won't move then you stay low on the hill. Don't push. You can poke them from both sides, split their attention and then rush over the hill on them. If they they start to move up the trench, near the butt-crack, that's where you really want to hit them. Roll up on the hill and focus them in 1s and 2s as they try to move up to the trench to shoot at you.

The best possible option in defending Boreal involves the other team never getting to the buildings. Especially if you're brawl to mid range you want to jump them in the trench or right inside the gate. There's nowhere for them to go. You let them pin you in the buildings and some will remain back at the trench and poke and some will come in from the butt crack and poke and some will poke from the ramp and you'll be getting hit on 2 sides at range.

Even if you're long range as IS if you're not a dedicated poke team with the right BLR and GHR builds then you should probably be on the mid hill to start out. Play as forward as you can. That gate choke-point is a brutal place for you to win the first real exchanges of the match. It's foolish to waste it.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 08 May 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

You think it's a trick, but it's actually good advice. I trade just fine against clans using LPL/ML builds, or ERLL builds, all of which use IS XL. You just have to position well, twist well, and shoot well (which is all the aspects of proper trading)

I've played IS almost as much as I've played Clans:

He's absolutely correct.

If you're going to play the ranged poke game and you're not already in a top tier comp team then stop with the PPCs and Gauss. Go 5 ERLL GHR or 5/6 ERLL BLR. Easier and you'll do a shocking amount of damage against trade teams. The total number of players who are so good with ERPPC/Gauss that they can out-trade one of those ERLL IS builds at 800-1k would take a lot of coordination to fit into a single match. You only need a tad over 1 second of exposure to get your full value of the burn. It takes a lot less skill to trade well with ERLLs than Gauss/PPC.

The critical piece is total number of effective shots taken. You'll be able to take more total shots and have those shots do more damage than you would with gauss/ERPPC. If you're doing 75% damage for the range (as in 75% of your laser is connecting) then you're about certain to win vs the gauss/ppc guy unless he's landing almost every shot. He's got to wait longer between shots he can take and his misses are 100% wasted. This becomes even more critical in teams; a team with 4-6 GHRs all trading are going to almost all be up, ready to shoot every time the PPC guy comes up to shoot so you're putting more damage out than you're taking in.

A few teammates with LPL BLRs and you're pretty much set. When you push them or they push you the other team will be pretty chewed and the 5 LPL BLRs will demolish them.

ERLL GHRs are actually a very, very good mech for newer players to learn to trade with. Relatively forgiving for a trade build and very effective.

[LordNothing]

Xetelian, on 08 May 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

SQUEE!!!

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

Xetelian, on 08 May 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

this should be a matchmaker meme

[Vxheous]

Xetelian, on 08 May 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Yeah, you might run an XL and 5 ERLL but can you poptart like a NTG and a HBK IIC?


The idea is that PUG groups don't listen and bring mixed load-outs that are good for neither long range nor brawling.

When against an organized unit you might as well press K K K K and Disconnect.

I've seen some Frankenstein's monster builds that include LBX10 and LRMs on the same mech.

No, you can't, but you're also not trying to fight in optimal Night Gyr range (600-800m). Hunchback IIc can get full damage to 891m with 2 CERPPC, but Mischief as already pointed out that PPFLD poptarting is all or nothing, that player either gets all 20+10 splash damage on you, or not at all. Meanwhile, you can do anywhere between 0-45 damage back depending on how steady your aim is on holding burn (low mouse sensitivity in-game + 800 dpi mouse helps in that regard). The number of truly elite pilots that can pop-tart with the most minimal exposure of their mech in FW is very very small. The vast majority will most likely clear 1/2 their mech over terrain, giving you at least some chance of trading.

The running joke has always been that this is a "thinking man's shooter" yet most people that come whining to the forum's don't actually think. Look at the optimal engagement ranges of clans, and build your mechs to play against those weaknesses. Clans typically own the 400-800m range engagement, with their laser vomit and Gauss/CERPPC stable. Find a way to force the fight at brawl range (hard to do with pugs) , 300-450m where IS laser vomit shines (easier to do with pugs) or stay outside 800m+ and take the 50/50 split in dealing with clan CERLL laser-sabers vs IS ERLL and making the Clans beat you with superior aim and skill of CERPPC (gauss damage starts to fall off)

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 09 May 2017 - 07:06 AM.

[Albino Boo]

Xetelian, on 08 May 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Says the merc riding on CSJ's nutz.

Small but important point, it's the guy that has at least rank 10 on all factions from before there were mercs. Never mind I'm sure you find some other way to be angry proclaim any fact you don't like are fake news.

[Vanguard319]

Mister Blastman, on 08 May 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

I can't speak for CW as I don't play it, but pushing in solo PUGs as a deathball is king. The team that does it wins more often than not. The team that cowers behind rocks or in a valley and waits... loses.

However, the push must be done right. It requires:

a. The assaults to be with the main group.
b. When the assaults start their push, they can never turn around. They are committed 100% and can't stop. The rest of the team needs to back them up.
c. Everyone goes at once, and someone should call targets.

The pushing team will lose a few robits. But the enemy team may likely lose all of theirs.

Defense is a losing strategy in the solo PUG queue. So is "flanking" with an assault lance.

"The best defense is an aggressive offense" This stratagem is as useful now as it was in Sun-Tzu's time.

[OrmsbyGore]

Hey giys, just remember, this game doesn't teach strategy or teamwork to new players, so they aren't playing poorly to frustrate you, they are playing poorly b/c this game requires homework to understand. If it had a better tutorial (one that actually prepared you for in-game situations) they wouldn't be so bad. Remember, not everyone has been playing since the start, and for some of us this is our first MW game.

[Vxheous]

OrmsbyGore, on 09 May 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Hey giys, just remember, this game doesn't teach strategy or teamwork to new players, so they aren't playing poorly to frustrate you, they are playing poorly b/c this game requires homework to understand. If it had a better tutorial (one that actually prepared you for in-game situations) they wouldn't be so bad. Remember, not everyone has been playing since the start, and for some of us this is our first MW game.

new players don't frustrate me, players that don't listen do. New players that have a positive attitude, and ask questions about how to get better, ask questions to understand why things are in the game, those players are great, and will improve quickly.

[Deathlike]

The small hills/mountains on the inside of Boreal are actually stronger trade positions on defense... as long as you aren't scared of taking hits (including Lurms). It is far easier to set up a decent firing line towards either ramps (whether the opfor comes up from Alpha or Beta) when you have all the ERLL you can handle.

When you're at the buildings, they are much easier positions to lose trades in due to relative positioning (your opponents have to aim in a very easy small window) vs 5-6 people laservomiting a target from the open hills (you can't hit all of them at the same time after all - the ramps on alpha+beta can only fit so many people).

A firing line is a lot more deadly when there's less terrain around them blocking their firing lanes with the (long) range you are playing with. This is the only time "being in the open" makes more sense.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 May 2017 - 10:47 AM.