72 replies to this topic

[iLLcapitan]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

Then you should be able to offer some advice. Please, be constructive, prove people wrong. Just saying that we haven't figured it out yet, means nothing if not proved. Then you might as well be bragging for no reason.

People know how not to get shot opening the beta gate. Not a problem. It's inside the walls that is a long range sniper deathtrap.

When we're IS we usually run open drops so the other people on the FRR / Kurita hub can join. When I'm pugging I'm dropcalling with voip. I'm doing my part, but surely not on the forums. Get on TS and involved is all i can say, if your aim is to improve.

[justcallme A S H]

MrJeffers, on 08 May 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Wait - what? Boreal is one of the few maps where the IS has a distinct advantage - Battlemaster 1-s and Grasshopper 5Ps with ERLL should be the first two mechs in your drop deck when you see Boreal.

Yeah ok so I would not go as far as "distinct" advantage.

Far from it.

It's how you play the map, that is it.

[Savage Wolf]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 09 May 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

"Even if that was true" makes it sound like you have clue about mech selection. Not all clan mechs are made equally, just because you can put a CERLL or CERPPC on every clan mech does not mean that every clan mech will excel in that role. Just like you can put a ERLL or ERPPC on 90%+ of IS mechs.

Even clan players here admit that to be able to compete, the IS mechs need to be quirked for either ER PPCs or ER LL to be able to compete in the long range fight against any clan mech with able to carry C-ER-PPCs or ER LLs. And of course some of the clan mechs are even better at it, but at least 90% of clan mechs can compete with a quirked IS mech.

Also, minimum tonnage for a weapon with a range beyond 600m?
Clan ER LL: 4 tons.
IS ER LL: 7 tons.

Vxheous Kerensky, on 09 May 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

The fight inside the gates of Boreal is far easier than the actual breach of the gate for pugs. Once you're in, there's trenches that you can take cover in provided that UAV's are taken care of. It's the opening of gate/chokepoint of gate that even good teams will have issue with on Boreal vs similar skilled opposition.

I have never experienced trouble getting in. Not even with PUGs against a 12 man.

[Vxheous]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

Even clan players here admit that to be able to compete, the IS mechs need to be quirked for either ER PPCs or ER LL to be able to compete in the long range fight against any clan mech with able to carry C-ER-PPCs or ER LLs. And of course some of the clan mechs are even better at it, but at least 90% of clan mechs can compete with a quirked IS mech.

Also, minimum tonnage for a weapon with a range beyond 600m?
Clan ER LL: 4 tons.
IS ER LL: 7 tons.

I have never experienced trouble getting in. Not even with PUGs against a 12 man.

You might want to re-check your "facts"

[Savage Wolf]

iLLcapitan, on 09 May 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

When we're IS we usually run open drops so the other people on the FRR / Kurita hub can join. When I'm pugging I'm dropcalling with voip. I'm doing my part, but surely not on the forums. Get on TS and involved is all i can say, if your aim is to improve.

Why not on the forums? It's like everyone saying you just have to "git gud" is protecting whatever knowledge they have like it's their precious.
I'm in a unit, we use VOIP, we use UAVs and all that good stuff. We are beyond the basics.
I'm really starting to think that most of these people don't even know anything I don't know already and wont admit it. Especially with the clear majority of those playing clans.

Mostly when winning it's by taking the clan range advantage away from them, but that's mostly done in defense, not when attacking. Found some good strategies on other maps, but so far Boreal has been like hitting a wall. Best thing working so far on Boreal is light rushing.

[Vxheous]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

Why not on the forums? It's like everyone saying you just have to "git gud" is protecting whatever knowledge they have like it's their precious.
I'm in a unit, we use VOIP, we use UAVs and all that good stuff. We are beyond the basics.
I'm really starting to think that most of these people don't even know anything I don't know already and wont admit it. Especially with the clear majority of those playing clans.

Mostly when winning it's by taking the clan range advantage away from them, but that's mostly done in defense, not when attacking. Found some good strategies on other maps, but so far Boreal has been like hitting a wall. Best thing working so far on Boreal is light rushing.

He's already told you how to win on Boreal. Please, just stop now. The more you type, the more ignorance you show of the game.

[Savage Wolf]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 09 May 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

You might want to re-check your "facts"

Ah, sorry, think I mixed it up with LPL, IS ER LL is only 5 tons. My bad.

[Vxheous]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Ah, sorry, think I mixed it up with LPL, IS ER LL is only 5 tons. My bad.

You know what, I'll be nice. You run in a group, all on teamspeak right? Try a deck of 3 5xERLL Grasshopper 5P + 50 tonner of your choice. Take 6 to alpha gate, 6 to beta gate off the start, do not open the gate. Just mass focus fire from from both sides into the clan center with all your ERLL until they back out of the middle/lose a bunch of mechs. Open alpha gate, go into Alpha trench. Take E7 grid, and lay down more ERLL fire into the clans, kill a few more. Slow press as a ERLL firing line till you kill everything, or you lose your whole wave. Rinse, repeat, win.

Conversely, you can do the same with Battlemasters with ERLL, or if you're worried about having all 12 mechs with ERLL, go 8 ERLL + 4 LPL/ML mechs per wave. The 4 LPL/ML mechs won't have anything to do initially, but they'll come in handy as you get onto Boreal platform

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 09 May 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[iLLcapitan]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

Why not on the forums? It's like everyone saying you just have to "git gud" is protecting whatever knowledge they have like it's their precious.
I'm in a unit, we use VOIP, we use UAVs and all that good stuff. We are beyond the basics.
I'm really starting to think that most of these people don't even know anything I don't know already and wont admit it. Especially with the clear majority of those playing clans.

Mostly when winning it's by taking the clan range advantage away from them, but that's mostly done in defense, not when attacking. Found some good strategies on other maps, but so far Boreal has been like hitting a wall. Best thing working so far on Boreal is light rushing.

1. I can't be arsed to type WOTs here
2. Why should I give our approaches away so freely as you describe? Took some time to figure stuff out y'know.
3. The best strategies are sometimes not enough, if people dont have the right loadouts/mechs or can't shoot straight. If its against equal opposition on boreal, 8 out of 10 times the defenders will win.
4. If you think clans are OP, sorry to say, but then you're not beyond the basics. Two sides of the same medal rly.
5. I invited you (and everybody else) to the FRR / Kurita hub. If you're looking for advice we can talk there.

[Savage Wolf]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 09 May 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

He's already told you how to win on Boreal. Please, just stop now. The more you type, the more ignorance you show of the game.

No he didn't. He even said so. "Not on the forums". The rest was basics.
And yes, I'm showing that there are things I don't know, the whole point of the tread is getting answers to that lack of knowledge.

But apparently all you do is... gloat. I'm not sure what your deal is but it's not really helpful to anyone. Yes, you are most likely way better than me at this game and spent countless more hours, whatever you need to hear to satisfy that need of yours. I don't care. But I want to learn and you're just repeating the basics.
So either tip in, or leave room for someone constructive.

So far I've not seen much advice on how to handle the range advantage on the map. Are there pathways I haven't seen to avoid sniper fire or somehow force them out of their camping positions?

[Vxheous]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

No he didn't. He even said so. "Not on the forums". The rest was basics.
And yes, I'm showing that there are things I don't know, the whole point of the tread is getting answers to that lack of knowledge.

But apparently all you do is... gloat. I'm not sure what your deal is but it's not really helpful to anyone. Yes, you are most likely way better than me at this game and spent countless more hours, whatever you need to hear to satisfy that need of yours. I don't care. But I want to learn and you're just repeating the basics.
So either tip in, or leave room for someone constructive.

So far I've not seen much advice on how to handle the range advantage on the map. Are there pathways I haven't seen to avoid sniper fire or somehow force them out of their camping positions?

I gave you a template to work with, two posts aboves. Grasshopper 5P (as of right now, RIP skill tree) has a 1.06 burn duration (shorter than a clan ERML burn) at 810m. It also has jumpjets which allow you to scale in and out of the alpha trench really well to make good shots with decent high mounts. The more ERLL you bring through your group, the more effective it becomes.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 09 May 2017 - 08:03 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 09 May 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

You know what, I'll be nice. You run in a group, all on teamspeak right? Try a deck of 3 5xERLL Grasshopper 5P + 50 tonner of your choice. Take 6 to alpha gate, 6 to beta gate off the start, do not open the gate. Just mass focus fire from from both sides into the clan center with all your ERLL until they back out of the middle/lose a bunch of mechs. Open alpha gate, go into Alpha trench. Take E7 grid, and lay down more ERLL fire into the clans, kill a few more. Slow press as a ERLL firing line till you kill everything, or you lose your whole wave. Rinse, repeat, win.

Conversely, you can do the same with Battlemasters with ERLL, or if you're worried about having all 12 mechs with ERLL, go 8 ERLL + 4 LPL/ML mechs per wave. The 4 LPL/ML mechs won't have anything to do initially, but they'll come in handy as you get onto Boreal platform

Thank you, that gives some insights.
Was hoping for some ways to counter the range, but in lack of that, simply play the same game back. Does however still expose the map as kind of one sided if all there is to do is snipe or lose. Maps should really have more than one viable stategy for them.

[Savage Wolf]

iLLcapitan, on 09 May 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

1. I can't be arsed to type WOTs here
2. Why should I give our approaches away so freely as you describe? Took some time to figure stuff out y'know.
3. The best strategies are sometimes not enough, if people dont have the right loadouts/mechs or can't shoot straight. If its against equal opposition on boreal, 8 out of 10 times the defenders will win.
4. If you think clans are OP, sorry to say, but then you're not beyond the basics. Two sides of the same medal rly.
5. I invited you (and everybody else) to the FRR / Kurita hub. If you're looking for advice we can talk there.

1. Fair enough. Don't expect everyone to have the time. As long as it's not followed by non-constructive gloating, it's fine.
2. Sure, but then it's not obvious knowledge either that people should be expected to have picked up.
3. Well defenders usually have the advantage in that gamemode.
4. There are pros and cons. Clans win at range, IS in brawls. Weapon wise. However Clan XLs give an advantage IS can't match yet. LFE will lessen that, but not match it. So they are stronger.
Not to mention the obvious advance on clans on the map despite lesser tonnage to work with. And no it cannot be explained with clanners being better pilots, because any newb should be just as inclined to join clans as IS. Until you figure out that because clanners win more, there are more rewards there which will make people join clans. And still they win.
I'm sorry, but this if anything in this game is blatently obvious by now. Only reason still to deny this is pride.
5. Yeah, I got that. Maybe I will.

[Vxheous]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

Thank you, that gives some insights.
Was hoping for some ways to counter the range, but in lack of that, simply play the same game back. Does however still expose the map as kind of one sided if all there is to do is snipe or lose. Maps should really have more than one viable stategy for them.

There are other ways to win on that map, the one I suggested is just the easiest and most consistent to pull off.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

Thank you, that gives some insights.
Was hoping for some ways to counter the range, but in lack of that, simply play the same game back. Does however still expose the map as kind of one sided if all there is to do is snipe or lose. Maps should really have more than one viable stategy for them.

Any IS mech with a 10% range quirk and an ERLL range module has a range of 810m
Clan ERLL with range module has a range of 814m

Both IS and clan gauss with range module 726M

Clan ERPPCs with range module 891M

IS ERPPC with range module 891M

Yes there are a handful of clan mechs with range quirks. Yes you can boost clan range with an investment in targeting computers.

But that pales in comparison to quirks like the -15% beam duration on the grasshopper 5P.

Maps like Boreal, Polar highlands, and Alpine peaks are more often than not won and lost in the mech lab. Especially in FW where you are able to choose your drop deck before the match.

Personally I hate Alpine peaks and polar highlands with a passion. The range game on those maps leads to the most boring and stale game play. It is also on those maps where I've experienced the most lopsided 48-12or less matches. And as it where I've had the most boring snipefest 20-15 matches. That is both as IS and as Clan. But I know that if I don't bring range, then I am going to be on the losing side of a 48-12 stomp.

Boreal at least forces one side to push the other side because of the objective win condition.

[Savage Wolf]

Jaybles, on 09 May 2017 - 08:44 AM, said:

Any IS mech with a 10% range quirk and an ERLL range module has a range of 810m
Clan ERLL with range module has a range of 814m

Both IS and clan gauss with range module 726M

Clan ERPPCs with range module 891M

IS ERPPC with range module 891M

Yes there are a handful of clan mechs with range quirks. Yes you can boost clan range with an investment in targeting computers.

But that pales in comparison to quirks like the -15% beam duration on the grasshopper 5P.

Maps like Boreal, Polar highlands, and Alpine peaks are more often than not won and lost in the mech lab. Especially in FW where you are able to choose your drop deck before the match.

Yes, but even clan lights can bring 2 ER-PPCs and do well. IS needs to be alot heavier to carry those long ranged weapons, especially because you also need to bring your standard engine. You could bring an XL, but then you are just easier to kill, something clans don't have to worry about.

Jaybles, on 09 May 2017 - 08:44 AM, said:

Personally I hate Alpine peaks and polar highlands with a passion. The range game on those maps leads to the most boring and stale game play. It is also on those maps where I've experienced the most lopsided 48-12or less matches. And as it where I've had the most boring snipefest 20-15 matches. That is both as IS and as Clan. But I know that if I don't bring range, then I am going to be on the losing side of a 48-12 stomp.

Boreal at least forces one side to push the other side because of the objective win condition.

Oh I could not agree more. I never understood why those maps are so popular in quickplay.

[B0oN]

Boreal Vaults gates can be opened by .... (wait for it !!!!!)

LRMS !

without getting shot at .

All you guys have to figure out now, is from where to fire those LRMs to open those gates without getting shot at .

P.s: Clan lights can field 2 ERPPCs ? Gimme that light ! I WANTS IT ! NOW !

Edited by The Shortbus, 09 May 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yes, but even clan lights can bring 2 ER-PPCs and do well. IS needs to be alot heavier to carry those long ranged weapons, especially because you also need to bring your standard engine. You could bring an XL, but then you are just easier to kill, something clans don't have to worry about.


Oh I could not agree more. I never understood why those maps are so popular in quickplay.

IS has an 25 tons extra. for every ERPPC Adder, you could bring a PPC/ERPPC Blackjack. And most IS builds for FW are using XL engines.

[Vxheous]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yes, but even clan lights can bring 2 ER-PPCs and do well. IS needs to be alot heavier to carry those long ranged weapons, especially because you also need to bring your standard engine. You could bring an XL, but then you are just easier to kill, something clans don't have to worry about.


Oh I could not agree more. I never understood why those maps are so popular in quickplay.

Clan lights run single CERPPC, with the except of the Adder...which runs really hot with 2 CERPPC.

[Kubernetes]

Savage Wolf, on 09 May 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yes, but even clan lights can bring 2 ER-PPCs and do well.

No one is bringing a light with ERPPCs on the last wave in FW.

My general experience is that even on ranged maps the last two waves will be fought at much closer range.

Quote

IS needs to be alot heavier to carry those long ranged weapons, especially because you also need to bring your standard engine. You could bring an XL, but then you are just easier to kill, something clans don't have to worry about.

Horrible misconception. Bring XL because you need speed more than extra durability. You need to get through killzones as quickly as you can.

Also, who cares about weapon weight? Dropdeck tonnage means IS can bring at least 5 tons more each wave. Moreover, the builds we suggest, BLR-1G and GHP-5P, both run around 74 kph and have max heat sinks. Weapon weight is not holding back IS, especially here because the Clan ERLL is trash.

Cap and others are trying to teach you some of the basics but we can't help if you insist on stubbornly resisting. You're arguing about weapon weights and irrelevant nonsense when we're trying to tell you what actually works in the field. These are builds that we've used successfully over thousands of matches. Try it. Get your 12-man together, wait for Polar/Alpine/Boreal, and have everyone drop in the BLR first, and GHP second. Your last two mechs won't even matter because 9/10 enemy teams won't make it past your GHP wave.

Edited by Kubernetes, 09 May 2017 - 01:05 PM.