52 replies to this topic

[CK16]

So here we go..something to think on...

This game will not AND should not ever be balanced in a symmetrical sense. Your ER Large Laser from IS should not be the exact same copy paste performance and stats to the Clan version.

What this game needs is asymmetrical balance...How do we figure this out? WE go to the lore!

IMO the best solution is something like...

-IS tech/gear should be more tanky and more robust less, efficient in fire power (not heat)
-Clan tech/gear should be more efficient in fire power, but fairly fragile cause of its compact and lighter design.

No, quirks are not the answer, if your quirks are making your guns to be just as Clans not only does this result in sometimes OUT performing Clans in terms of range and dmg per sec ect...NOW before "WELL LOOK AT THIS CLANNER MAD HIS MECH IS NOT TOP DOG"...the bigger issue here is that mech now makes any IS mech considered to junk. These over quirked mechs are causing more balance issues BECAUSE players are only playing them trying to make IS mechs exactly equal to Clans...WHICH they should not, as stated each side should have its unique advantages and disadvantages that make them balance out each other, NOT equal to each other. IF you want a generic shooter where stats are same for both sides depending on what weapons players choose (and both sides have access too mind you) then go play BF1, COD, SW:BF for your epeens sake and stop trying to make MWO into a generic shooter with just robots.

TL:DR - Balance in MWO should not be taken as both sides should be the exact same, there needs to be a asymmetrical balance where each side has its pluses and minus for how they work...

P.S.

Spoiler

PGI has said after skill tree things might be a bit unbalanced but they expect..although it is odd how they are handling it, have some patience here and relax..New tech is also going to throw some wrenches in and honestly I see IS getting much more stuff to worry about being broken over Clans.

Edited by CK16, 06 May 2017 - 01:32 PM.

[B0oN]

RACs, MRMs, LMG, HMG, SnubnosedPPC´s, LGauss, etc. etc. ... it´ll be dang sexy times to be a spheroid, I´d say

[Alan Davion]

CK16, on 06 May 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

So here we go..something to think on...

This game will not AND should not ever be balanced in a symmetrical sense. Your ER Large Laser from IS should not be the exact same copy paste performance and stats to the Clan version.

What this game needs is asymmetrical balance...How do we figure this out? WE go to the lore!

IMO the best solution is something like...

-IS tech/gear should be more tanky and more robust less, efficient in fire power (not heat)
-Clan tech/gear should be more efficient in fire power, but fairly fragile cause of its compact and lighter design.

No quirks are not the answer, if your quirks are making your guns to be just as Clans not only does this result in sometimes OUT performing Clans in terms of range and dmg per sec ect...NOW before "WELL LOOK AT THIS CLANNER MAD HIS MECH IS NOT TOP DOG"...the bigger issue here is that mech now makes any IS mech considered to junk. These over quirked mechs are causing more balance issues BECAUSE players are only playing them trying to make IS mechs exactly equal to Clans...WHICH they should not, as stated each side should have its unique advantages and disadvantages that make them balance out each other, NOT equal to each other. IF you want a generic shooter where stats are same for both sides depending on what weapons players choose (and both sides have access too mind you) then go play BF1, COD, SW:BF for your epeens sake and stop trying to make MWO into a generic shooter with just robots.

TL:DR - Balance in MWO should not be taken as both sides should be the exact same, there needs to be a asymmetrical balance where each side has its pluses and minus for how they work...

PGI has said after skill tree things might be a bit unbalanced but they expect..although it is odd how they are handling it, have some patience here and relax..New tech is also going to throw some wrenches in and honestly I see IS getting much more stuff to worry about being broken over Clans.

The Shortbus, on 06 May 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

RACs, MRMs, LMG, HMG, SnubnosedPPC´s, LGauss, etc. etc. ... it´ll be dang sexy times to be a spheroid, I´d say

Except even with new tech, about 90% of it is still going to be inferior to the Clan equivalents.

LBX ACs, UACs, ER Lasers, Streak SRMs, Rocket Launchers (yes I know the Clans have no equivalent for this, but being a one-and-done weapon, it's still a completely inferior weapon system), are all heavier, bulkier and generally weaker than the Clan versions.

RACs, MRMs, Light/Heavy/Snub PPCs, are about the only weapons where the IS will have any advantage in using because the Clans have no version of their own... And even then the PPCs will still probably be inferior in some way to the plain Clan ERPPC.

Honestly the RACs and MRMs are probably the only weapons that will have the Clans cringing in fear, and that's dependent on PGI coding them properly... And we all know the chances of that are more remote than a snowballs chance in hell.

[Monkey Lover]

-IS tech/gear should be more tanky and more robust less, efficient in fire power (not heat)


Then there is a lot of work to do.10-15 extra armor doesn't make something tanky. It just makes it have 1-2 extra laser worth of damage. We can start by doubling IS armor.. Allow IS to us case in our arms be nice too.

Be nice to have weapons with less heat on IS side too. Dph are about the same on both sides. Even a few weapons on the clans are cooler for example clan ppc, Er small.

[Spheroid]

Balance is pointless. CW is a single unified front with no individual planets in contention. If both sides fought to a standstill the gamemode would never move out of skirmish and the space map would never advance or contract whatsoever under the current eight hour phase system.

People ***** about the state of I.S. vs. Clan but it is even worse than that. 95%+ of all mechs in the game are less than perfect regardless of tech base. The elimination of the mandatory three variant system will kill diversity even further.

Fewer than a dozen variants cover a vast majority of expected combat conditions out of hundreds available.

Stop trying to balance specific mechs or thinking that equality is good for gameplay. What is needed rather is a variable dynamic negative feedback system either in tonnage or c-bills that tames units or factions for winning excessively. The fun would be reaching the different tipping point each said unit is capable of enduring. The non-uniformity of these points would give the illusion of a meaningful interstellar war for territory, which is all the lore guys like me wanted.

Edited by Spheroid, 06 May 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Shortbus, on 06 May 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

RACs, MRMs, LMG, HMG, SnubnosedPPC´s, LGauss, etc. etc. ... it´ll be dang sexy times to be a spheroid, I´d say

Sure. Though Immortal C-XLs, 2 slot DHS, half crit Endo and Ferro NEVER go out of style.

Just sayin.

[Y E O N N E]

I agree that IS and Clan should have their own flavors, but it's difficult for that to happen when one side has the advantage in literally every category if you actually sit down and work the numbers out. You have to give up some of it for this to become a thing.

[Bulletsponge0]

Monkey Lover, on 06 May 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

-IS tech/gear should be more tanky and more robust less, efficient in fire power (not heat)


Then there is a lot of work to do.10-15 extra armor doesn't make something tanky. It just makes it have 1-2 extra laser worth of damage. We can start by doubling IS armor.. Allow IS to us case in our arms be nice too.

Be nice to have weapons with less heat on IS side too. Dph are about the same on both sides. Even a few weapons on the clans are cooler for example clan ppc, Er small.

wait...WHAT?

[Alan Davion]

Spheroid, on 06 May 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

Stop trying to balance things or thinking that equality is good for gameplay. What is needed rather is a variable dynamic negative feedback system either in tonnage or c-bills that breaks units or factions for winning excessively. The fun would be reaching numerous tipping points each said unit is capable of enduring. The non-uniformity of these points would give the illusion of a meaningful interstellar war for territory, which is all the lore guys like me wanted.

Except equality IS good for gameplay. Actually no, I'd even go so far as to say it's BLOODY FLIPPING ESSENTIAL~! Two sides need to have an equal chance of winning the game. Literally every other PvP FPS game in existence I can think of follows this rule and those are wildly popular.

Right now MWO is stupidly skewed in favor of the Clans because all the factors that would normally try to balance them against IS in table top are either absent or completely impossible to implement.

Also your points on "variable dynamic negative feedback" are either already in place or have been tried in the past.

Before PGI implemented this tonnage system, which itself has been changed several times, and still hasn't corrected for the blatant and obscene super powered Clans, they screwed around with the different factions C-Bill rewards, increasing them for the least played factions, and decreasing them for the most played factions to make people bounce around.

Guess what... Those haven't worked the way they were intended, and they probably pissed off a lot of people who were Loyalists to certain factions with those C-Bill changes.

[Monkey Lover]

Bulletsponge0, on 06 May 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

wait...WHAT?

If you really want to make something tanky it's going to take a crap load of armor.. Personally I still would want higher alphas over crap loads of armor.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 06 May 2017 - 02:48 PM.

[Spheroid]

@Alan: No it hasn't, the balance has always been set manually by PGI. My system is automatic. Where has there been an automatic balancing system save merc population modifier?

How well would Kcom do if through victory they ony have 120 tons across four mechs? Is an all Kit Fox force going to prevail against a Battlemaster opfor that can outshoot them and outlast them? The penalty would depend on how good or sucky you were. Notice I said Kit Fox not Cheetah. Smoke Jags don't export their meta to other factions. Likewise Night Gyrs are Falcon property, Kodiak the Bear's etc.

Either pay a heavy tax or switch Clans to use an optimized deck. Chasing meta means the most powerful factions will be overpopulated and again are subject to an automatic balance in regards to income modifiers.

Edited by Spheroid, 06 May 2017 - 03:18 PM.

[Bud Crue]

CK16, on 06 May 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

TL:DR - Balance in MWO should not be taken as both sides should be the exact same, there needs to be a asymmetrical balance where each side has its pluses and minus for how they work...

I'm all for asymmetrical balance.
From this dev, with this game...
...I'd be happy with ANY sort of balance.

[Steve Pryde]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Sure. Though Immortal C-XLs, 2 slot DHS, half crit Endo and Ferro NEVER go out of style.

Just sayin.

Then just make your listed IS-tech the same as Clan. I really don't understand why PGI is so against that step? Stock builds are not affected from this and it whould be way easier to balance things later on.

Game balance is way more important than lore/rules ******** from a table top rulebook.

[CK16]

Eh, if they start to tweek with weapon sizes and tonnages (not saying anyone here is saying this) that affects true lore builds you know how they set the mechs loadouts in game when you buy them? Then we are back to how MW4 did things and how many mechs "stock" loadout was not even a lore loadout.

[Y E O N N E]

CK16, on 06 May 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Eh, if they start to tweek with weapon sizes and tonnages (not saying anyone here is saying this) that affects true lore builds you know how they set the mechs loadouts in game when you buy them? Then we are back to how MW4 did things and how many mechs "stock" loadout was not even a lore loadout.

Well, if all they do is reduce weight and slots on IS stuff, none of the lore builds are affected.

Still, though, I wouldn't like this approach. I'd rather they take the approach where if a piece of equipment weighs more than the other, it should have some real and tangible advantages.

[B0oN]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 May 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Sure. Though Immortal C-XLs, 2 slot DHS, half crit Endo and Ferro NEVER go out of style.

Just sayin.

Immortal cXL ? Really ? You can and SHOULD do better than that, Bishop . Weaksauce .
2 slot DHS @ 1.4 efficiency ... blach ... not even close to IS heatefficiencies after quirks .
Endo and Ferro only matter on "IIC" Variants .

Why don´t you all start using those quite simply usable mechs you have ?
Oh yea ... clans OP, why even try, hm ?

I´ll tell you guys what I see :
Strawmen wielded by learning-resistant, all around
Useless to have anything close to a discussion about how to/how not to balance a game (...not even talking about efficient IS builds anymore, you all know them, yet so many refuse to use their EZ mode tools ... shakes head in exasperation), when everyone OBVIOUSLY just wants an "I-WIN" button .

Have fun discussing something that, in all likelyhood, will be completely disregarded by PGI just because it is YET ANOTHER BALANCE THREAD going nowhere ... fast .

[Y E O N N E]

The Shortbus, on 06 May 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Immortal cXL ? Really ? You can and SHOULD do better than that, Bishop . Weaksauce .
2 slot DHS @ 1.4 efficiency ... blach ... not even close to IS heatefficiencies after quirks .
Endo and Ferro only matter on "IIC" Variants .

Speaking of learning-resistant...

[CK16]

Wait someone calling Bishop an uneducated Spheroid and wanting and insta I WIN BUTTON?? He is probably one of the few who makes sense some what....WE all know a few Spheroids who even the idea of a Clam ER large laser doing dmg at 1m would piss them off, definitely not Bishop though lol.

Honestly the issue I see is on paper from TT and here Clans do look better, I think it should look like that IMO, specially at this point and time in the time line. That does not mean they should be clearly better, but they should look meaner ect....

BTW to bad there really isnt a way for Clan players to earn their mechs and rank ect. I mean the one thing really missing from the lore is "genetically better"

[Alan Davion]

Spheroid, on 06 May 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

@Alan: No it hasn't, the balance has always been set manually by PGI. My system is automatic. Where has there been an automatic balancing system save merc population modifier?

How well would Kcom do if through victory they ony have 120 tons across four mechs? Is an all Kit Fox force going to prevail against a Battlemaster opfor that can outshoot them and outlast them? The penalty would depend on how good or sucky you were. Notice I said Kit Fox not Cheetah. Smoke Jags don't export their meta to other factions. Either pay a heavy tax or switch Clans. Chasing meta means the most powerful factions will be overpopulated and again are subject to an automatic balance in regards to income modifiers.

That's right, a manual system controlled by PGI, because an automatic system would end up having the opposite affect to what we have now. People would just be crying, pissing and moaning for different reasons.

Right now everyone's playing Clans cause they're just plain stupidly overpowered, and hardly anyone plays IS because what's the flipping point if you're just gonna get ROFLSTOMPED every game?

With your solution, hardly anyone would play Clan cause they wouldn't have the tonnage required to spam their ultra-meta-cheese mechs.

Same problem, different causes. CW would still be a complete ghost town.

Really, PGI should just shut CW down instead of continuing to waste time and effort on something that the vast majority of the players despise with the burning passion of a thousand super giant stars.

[Bishop Steiner]

Steve Pryde, on 06 May 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

Then just make your listed IS-tech the same as Clan. I really don't understand why PGI is so against that step? Stock builds are not affected from this and it whould be way easier to balance things later on.

Game balance is way more important than lore/rules ******** from a table top rulebook.

because making everything the same is boring AF, and might as well just remove any form of factions at that point?

Funny the odd amount of salt one gets just for stating a fact. Like when the Clammer whined and QQ cuz teh IS gotted more new toys then they did....... ignoring the fact that 75% of those new toys are just inferior versions of what the Clams already had (Cuz facts and reality has an odd way of shutting down QQ).

The Shortbus, on 06 May 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Immortal cXL ? Really ? You can and SHOULD do better than that, Bishop . Weaksauce .
2 slot DHS @ 1.4 efficiency ... blach ... not even close to IS heatefficiencies after quirks .
Endo and Ferro only matter on "IIC" Variants .

Why don´t you all start using those quite simply usable mechs you have ?
Oh yea ... clans OP, why even try, hm ?

I´ll tell you guys what I see :
Strawmen wielded by learning-resistant, all around
Useless to have anything close to a discussion about how to/how not to balance a game (...not even talking about efficient IS builds anymore, you all know them, yet so many refuse to use their EZ mode tools ... shakes head in exasperation), when everyone OBVIOUSLY just wants an "I-WIN" button .

Have fun discussing something that, in all likelyhood, will be completely disregarded by PGI just because it is YET ANOTHER BALANCE THREAD going nowhere ... fast .

"really"

What happens when an IS XL loses a torso? DEATH
Clan XL? Heat and speed penalties.

Heatsinks still function close enough (both being 1.4s) that yeah... being able to fit them in things like legs.... or the CT, or 4 in an arm instead of 2? Yeah it's kind of a things. As is being able to save up to 14 slots on Endo and Ferro.

So yeah... call it weaksauce all you like. You're only lying to yourself, and maybe those gullible enough not to check. But hey, keep trying to bury those details cuz they don't fit with your "Clams are teh victims" bullcrap agenda, buttercup.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 May 2017 - 03:30 PM.