29 replies to this topic

[Evgeny Bear]

Well as I zapped through the TV channels I watched a report about a scientific breakthrough.
It was about a scientist who made water out of Regolith (Moondust). Link
And thats not all, also the Solarwinds bring hydrogen molecules onto the moon
which reacts to water and Hydroxyl, floating back into space or be bounded in the moondust.
So this is a never ending source of hydrogen and Oxygen.

As I saw this I was full of joy and excited, because a moon colony with hydroponics
as well as unlimited Oxygen supply could be possible... and if my life is long enough for civilians too ^^

If we are lucky they found also iron and other minerals/elements so we could produce spaceships
and a spaceharbor on the moon =D this would be a big step to discover the rest of our solarsystem.

So hehe star league may be in reach "soon" ^^

Well ehrm... was only about too share my excitement as scifi fan
and maybe here are some ppl who feel the same.

Edited by Andar89, 16 December 2011 - 07:19 PM.

[Knt Maverick]

personally.. i believe that they're only "leaking" this information out now...basicly... take'n their time with it. I believe that we have a base lvl of technology now to make orbital stations (including the moon) a common-place. even for the civilians. but.. it boils down to one things. MONEY... --but, that's a different topic all together--

honestly, i'm with you.. i hope "soon" is within our lifetime .

[Sug]

Until they discover oil on the moon we probably won't go there. No one's been there in like 40 years.

[Evgeny Bear]

Knt.Maverick, on 16 December 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

personally.. i believe that they're only "leaking" this information out now...basicly... take'n their time with it. I believe that we have a base lvl of technology now to make orbital stations (including the moon) a common-place. even for the civilians. but.. it boils down to one things. MONEY... --but, that's a different topic all together--

honestly, i'm with you.. i hope "soon" is within our lifetime .

Well despite the so "horrible" economy crysis (well they said its over in germany... yeah >.>) Humanity is really unable to work together, even if this would speed up the process. What is a really sad fact I think.
Some reagions in the world have embraced a really long period of peace, but still everyone thinks about themselves.

Sug, on 16 December 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

Until they discover oil on the moon we probably won't go there. No one's been there in like 40 years.

Well Germany and France still finance their own fusion-ractor projects, scientists know that they need Helium-3 for this, everything else needs too much energy and resources to be really economical. Helium-3 is very rare on earth and can only be found on old nuclear warheads, but on the Moon there are unlimited Helium-3 sources that replenish themselves (Solarwind).
A mining base build on the moon is already planned by multiple Nations, as well as conflicts in propection rights.
Only expansive factor is the transport from moon back to earth and otherwise, to moon needs too much energy and to earth needs to be safe (yeah the spaceshuttles are insufficient)

Edited by Andar89, 16 December 2011 - 07:49 PM.

[Zakatak]

I'll be impressed when NASA can build a spaceship that uses a fusion rocket, and fly me to the Moon, Mars, Europia, and Titan in under a week.

Get cracking.

As for fusion? A guy named Rossi already built a self-sufficient "cold fusion" reactor called the E-Cat that produces 500kW and runs for 6 months off of 5kg of nickel and hydrogen. We have like 10 different promising fusion experiments going on right now, like ITER and the piston-powered reactor General Fusion is making. Check 'em out.

Edited by Zakatak, 16 December 2011 - 09:11 PM.

[Reggimus]

I'll be impressed when NASA can launch their own astronauts

[Tomin]

Why go to the moon when you can go to Mars? The Mars direct plan has been around for quite a while now, and the tech for generating materials and fuel onsite has been proven.

[Ranger207]

Can, yes.
Will...
Not under Obama...

[M94 Mushroom Man]

Hopefully this'll happen in my lifetime.

[xxxCROMxxx]

We would already be on the moon if it was not for the politics.

[Sporkosophy]

xxxCROMxxx, on 22 December 2011 - 05:08 AM, said:

We would already be on the moon if it was not for the politics.

It does ruin everything.

[Arctic Fox]

Andar89, on 16 December 2011 - 07:49 PM, said:

Well Germany and France still finance their own fusion-ractor projects, scientists know that they need Helium-3 for this, everything else needs too much energy and resources to be really economical. Helium-3 is very rare on earth and can only be found on old nuclear warheads, but on the Moon there are unlimited Helium-3 sources that replenish themselves (Solarwind).
A mining base build on the moon is already planned by multiple Nations, as well as conflicts in propection rights.
Only expansive factor is the transport from moon back to earth and otherwise, to moon needs too much energy and to earth needs to be safe (yeah the spaceshuttles are insufficient)

That's not strictly speaking true. While there is Helium-3 in Lunar Regolith, it's in such a ridiculously low density (You'd have to process milliions of tons of it for every ton of Helium-3 you're getting) that it's significantly cheaper to just produce it on Earth. There's a lot more Helium-3 on the outer system gas giants, so Saturn might be a good idea if you need fuel for a fusion reactor.

[Catamount]

If the moon has valuable resources then it's worth going, but otherwise it's not much better than LEO. We need to be striving for the asteroid belt, and perhaps Mars, and the moon doesn't much help us there, again, unless there's resources there.

Hopefully the James Webb Space Telescope will be a good first step towards pushing our infrastructure out more, along with the Space Launch System that NASA and the White House have agreed to replace Constellation with.



On the subject of nuclear fusion, ITER has potential on really, really big scales, but tokamak reactors are just grossly wasteful. The most promising fusion initiative, in my opinion, is Polywell, which, by design, suffers far fewer electron losses and is apparently net-power capable. EMC2, under their contract with the US Navy, expects to have a production fusion reactor up by the end of the decade (and technically, they're ahead of schedule on that roadmap, last I heard).


As for Andrea Rossi's ECAT device, I'm sorry to say that as much as I'd like cold fusion, the reason the world isn't jumping on buying these things is because they're a scam. Rossi has never submitted one of these devices for independent testing, and when that is eventually done, I doubt anything substantiating will be found, because when demonstrations have been held for the device, proper science was often ignored and the device did not behave in a way that corroborated Rossi, and Rossi has made many claims that he could easily verify to show that these devices work (which you'd obviously do since they're a commercial product), but has refused that verification, for instance claiming an ECAT heats a factory in Bondeno, Italy, but refusing to show it to anyone. http://www.physorg.c...lity-video.html


Thus far, my money's on Polywell, as the little snippets we've gotten sound very promising (though, sadly, they're under a USN information embargo), and it sounds like scaling it working in their favor, with a good chance of net power generation. If the Navy suddenly and inexplicably drops the project, I guess we'll know it's it's a bust, but until then, I'm hopeful

[Evgeny Bear]

Hello again fellow Mechwarriors, I got back after some off time =)

to Topic:

The main Idea I like about the Moon colony is simply the one I heard once or twice and which gained my favour.
It was the idea to build up a spaceport and spaceship constructionsite, to change the moon from a rocky ball,
into a fully operational Spaceharbour.
And this would also bring mars and the astroidbelt in our reach with far less power needed then we would at any earthbased spaceport. Also the moon can serve as testsubject for longterm studies about the space radiation, spacefarming (hydroponics etc), longterm space operations with full lifesupport.
I mean to start a rocket from earth always needs so damn much engery and fuel, you allways limiting the cargospace,
as well as you endanger crew and equipment. With a space port on moon, you need far less energy to overcome the gravity and you can use the own speed of the moon to gain speed.
So maybe we found more resources on moon than simply some space radiation (Iron and other stuff to build ships) to make this idea usefull.


So far
Andar

Edited by Andar89, 04 January 2012 - 06:09 AM.

[Mikhal Rain Longcut]

Gentlemen it's the same old story I do believe we have the tech to build a self-sufficient moon base and the faster we get our little toes on the lunar plains the better off our planet will be. The major stumbling block is and still will be reaching orbit in an economical fashion even with the advent of Space Ship 2, Space X (the best in my eyes), and all the others until the cost per pound reaches a level where a normal "middle-class" person from around the world could afford a ride the cost will be to much even if they find rare earth elements in the regolith which I think they have found and import them back to earth the cost versus reward is still to much of a gap.

[Evgeny Bear]

True words, but what are the options to lower the price?
That spacefaring should not be a goverment only affair seem to be clear, but what else?

[Adridos]

Seems Mars is not known anymore. I thought you were racing to get there, but... I guess guerrila actions of Red Faction and later forge world with the best tech and even titans will have to wait.

[Evgeny Bear]

Adridos, on 04 January 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Seems Mars is not known anymore. I thought you were racing to get there, but... I guess guerrila actions of Red Faction and later forge world with the best tech and even titans will have to wait.

You forgot that the Moon is the base of the Inquisition (even pre heresy) and a vault of secrets for it, as well as the Sanctum for the Silent Sisters and the Lunar Wolves =P

The Emperor protects!

Edited by Andar89, 04 January 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[Tifalia]

They have been saying thngs like a self-supporting Luna Colony for well over 30 years as well as being able to establish a colony on Mars for over 20 years and yet NASA has been "stuck" in Earth's orbit for a good 29 years.
Personally, while I believe such things are possibke, I doubt the claims of any NASA administrator who divulged such news because even when we have had the technology years ago to accomplishnsuch things, then sure we would have done such things right now.
But since NASA has done nothing but sit on their hands and changed the goal from space exploration and colonisation to researching how the universe started and that elusive 'god particle', I put little faith in any kind of space exploration to take place well in my life time.

I have to ask: Is anyone serious interested in the origins of the universe? Or the 'experiments' that NASA continually carries out?
I put to them this: if they keep coming out with claims that they can colonise other worlds in the next 5-10 years, then why not DO it, instead of stuffing around with experiments that have no real purpose other than wasting billions of dollars a year on experiments like the big bang when all of the results, while fascinating, have no impact on how we live today.

Get to the stars, NASA or stop writing papers on how we can do so!

[Xhaleon]

There is absolutely no reason to build anything on Luna right now. For anyone to consider doing it, there has to be a justifiable return on investment, and there is simply too little to gain from having a moonbase right now.

You want to develop the solar system? Start by making a tug-ship to bring an asteroid to Earth, then using it as a counterweight for an orbital elevator. Or skip the boat part and construct an orbital station from scratch.

Either way, the cost of pushing materials into space with rockets will only make space colonization impractical. But with an orbital elevator, shifting materials up and down could be economical, and (possibly) profitable ventures like asteroid mining operations could begin and thus justify its upkeep. Baby steps, people.

And then we can all play the IRL RPG about turrists blowin up mah obbital elahvatahs.