164 replies to this topic

[Tiewolf]

Tired of arguing with clan crocodile tears whiners? Just link this post!

I try to sum up all the arguments on the forum atm and feel free to comment and complete this little compendium.

Why are clans op? (compared to IS)

1. Clan XL Engine

IS has to compromise between speed, firepower or durability in their builds. Clan with the Clan XL engine can achieve all traits at once. You can lose one sidetorso and can go on with penalties. The clan XL engine is still light and occupies less slots so more slots and tonnage for weapons or heatsinks.

(Impact maybe mitigated with the upcoming IS light fusion engine)

2. Effective Combat Range

Clan weapons have longer effective range. Even weapons for 1ton like ER-ML have a reach of 400m+. This is a major factor in all PUG games, easier for unexperient players and on most if not all maps advantageous. Clan mechs can do effective damage without any fear of serious return fire. This longer Range is even more devastating together with ECM (4.2).

(Impact maybe mitigated with the upcoming IS tech update)

3. Clan C.A.S.E.

Death by ammo explosion? Are you kidding me? Build in C.A.S.E. without any extra weight.

4. Omnipods (Imho the biggest op asset clan has and imbalance issue)

4.1 Mechbuilds

IS mechs are stuck with their hardpoints or quirks PGI gives them. Omnimechs can build unbelievable Omnipod combinations to costumize/maximize their hardpoints and potential. E.g. Huntsman 8x c-ssrm or Flamer/ER-SL Nova for scouting and many more.

4.2 ECM

IS ECM mechs are stuck to their hardpoints. E.g. Griffin to missles or cataphract well...to a cataphract. There is only a limited use (fixed combat roles) for the IS ECM mechs. Not for Clan Omnimechs. They can field nearly any weapon combination their tonnage enables them to. Thats why in FW (to an extend also in QP) most of the time the Clanteam got multiple ECM protection, which is a great advantage and even more in PUG games with unexperienced players.

(The onmipod advantage will be uneffected (except maybe ECM) by the upcoming tech and skilltree update!)

5. Weight and slot advantage

Clantech is lighter and takes less slots to equip. Clan XL, Fero and Endo consume less slots so there are more slots availeble for equipment. Equipment like weapons are lighter or take less slots. E.g. double heatsinks only take 2 slots and can be even equiped in the legs. This is the reason why clan mechs can boat more weapons, heatsinks and all kind of equipment.

(mostly uneffected by the upcoming tech update)

6. Restrictions to clantech are often not relevant

E.g. clan weapons generate more heat. But Clan mechs can carry more heatsinks (see 5.) and in many circumstances this extra heat doesn`t matter cause you can disengage and cool down in cover.

E.g. clan lasers got longer burntimes but they got the longer effective range and often ECM so that there is less serious treat of return fire in the longer exposition time.

(maybe in parts or a bit mitigated by the upcoming tech update)

7. Draining off experienced players

After a while playing the game and getting more familiar with the mechanics every player realizes point 1. to 6. and uses clantech if the performace is important. You can see this first hand in competitive play or in the ongoing Tukayyid event. So every experienced player who is not bound by nostalgia, stubbornness or what ever to the IS side, switches to clan. Only the unexperienced players and the ones mentioned above stay at IS and the matches in FW get even more unbalanced.

(Change here depends on the values of the upcoming tech update and IS quirk nerfs, but i think it will be unaffected cause many valid points why Clan is op compared to IS are uneffected by the updates)

P.S.: This is not a "NERF CLAN" cry. I personaly think clan should be op and the game needs a asymetrical balance like one mech less in the dropdeck for clan side etc..

Edited by Tiewolf, 10 May 2017 - 05:03 PM.

[Ryllen Kriel]

You make some valid points.

I'll argue on behalf of Clan tech. Chewbacca is a wookie from the planet Kashyyyk but he lives on Endor...

[Exilyth]

Tiewolf, on 10 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

4.2 ECM

I feel like this one comes down mostly to Catapract vs Hellbringer - the Cataphract is seldomly used while the Hellbringer is a 10ton lighter Timber Wolf (Comparable to the difference between Thunderbolt and Warhammer on the IS side).

Clan ECM Heavy is usefull -> shows up more -> clans have ECM more often (and with just 3-4 HBR most of their team is covered).

Similar to the Cataphract, the other inner sphere ECM heavy, the ARC-T (aside from costing MC), is not very usefull in FW due to the low cockpit, the low and wide arm hardpoints and not being XL safe.

For Assaults, you'll see the MAD-IIC more than the Atlas or Cyclops, and when you do, it's often the IS mechs being the variants without ECM.

Edited by Exilyth, 10 May 2017 - 05:15 PM.

[Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh]

Can this silly pic be the end of Clans VS Sphere discussions?

[Garfuncle]

It's less about nerfing Clans, than making IS not suck so hard in comparison. Buff our ranges, make our skill tree even more impressive in the upcoming update, give STD engines some inherent bonuses, take a look at shared ghost heat limits between the two factions and adjust them IS side, etc.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Garfuncle, on 10 May 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

It's less about nerfing Clans, than making IS not suck so hard in comparison. Buff our ranges, make our skill tree even more impressive in the upcoming update, give STD engines some inherent bonuses, take a look at shared ghost heat limits between the two factions and adjust them IS side, etc.

Nerfing and buffing should both be used. If you just go and buff everything all the time it seems underpowered, you end up with power creep. You gotta buff outstanding underperformers and nerf outstanding overperformers.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 10 May 2017 - 05:56 PM.

[El Bandito]

Tiewolf, on 10 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

E.g. clan lasers got longer burntimes but they got the longer effective range and often ECM so that there is less serious treat of return fire in the longer exposition time.

(maybe in parts or a bit mitigated by the upcoming tech update)

Clan lasers also do more damage per burn. Sure ISML has less duration, but that wouldn't matter since CERML will still do more damage during 0.9 second, compared to ISML.

Exilyth, on 10 May 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

I feel like this one comes down mostly to Catapract vs Hellbringer - the Cataphract is seldomly used while the Hellbringer is a 10ton lighter Timber Wolf (Comparable to the difference between Thunderbolt and Warhammer on the IS side).

Clan ECM Heavy is usefull -> shows up more -> clans have ECM more often (and with just 3-4 HBR most of their team is covered).

Similar to the Cataphract, the other inner sphere ECM heavy, the ARC-T (aside from costing MC), is not very usefull in FW due to the low cockpit, the low and wide arm hardpoints and not being XL safe.

Also this. IS needs a meta ECM totting Heavy mech.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 May 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Clan players are just better they never take bad builds , Like IS does

Prof RJ Gumby, on 10 May 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

Nerfing and buffing should both be used. If you just go and buff everything all the time it seems underpowered, you end up with power creep. You gotta buff outstanding underperformers and nerf outstanding overperformers.

Any time a nerf happens people freak out and start demanding their money back

Its much easier to buff i see why they do it.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 10 May 2017 - 07:21 PM.

[Scyther]

I agree in general with those points. While you mention Clan XL I would also emphasize that effective Clan mechs are often more maneuverable in general (ie. a faster mech with a workable payload , or with JJ options, or both).

I also agree with Exilyth that it is pretty much the Hellbringer that makes FP matches (and some QP) into 'full ECM coverage' for the team.

I have quite a few of both Clan and IS mechs, and while I am happy to play either and enjoy both, whenever I fire up a Clan mech I do so knowing that I will be enjoying those advantages.

There are some IS advantages as well (engine flexibility and faster lights, for instance) and while useful, they don't offset the Clan advantages. (Also engine de-sync may reduce these.)

That said, Clan tech is supposed to be better, and the game would frankly feel 'odd' if it wasn't. Numbers asymmetry was part of the 'lore' balance but I don't really think that's workable in MWO.

I think quirks were a good idea overall, not only were they able to help with Clan/IS issues, but they also helped the 'unloved' chassis both IS and Clan sides to gain a little more viability. They just needed to be worked in with care rather than blanket-sprinkled seemingly at random (or for quite different priorities than what the playerbase would use, for instance).

Edit: other than quirks, if IS side got, say, a +10% C-Bill/Exp 'Home Defense' bonus in FP matches I think that would help encourage players to be IS faction. Also offset a bit of the snowball effect of 'Clan wins more so they get paid more so can afford more mechs, more gear/upgrades, more consumables for the next round which helps them win more so they get paid more so...'

(Note: my various attempts to evaluate the Clan 'edge' usually end up guesstimating that Clan mechs/tech are about 8-10% 'more effective' than IS. It's not huge but it's significant. Thus the +10% bonus payout idea.)

Edited by MadBadger, 10 May 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'll argue on behalf of Clan tech. Chewbacca is a wookie from the planet Kashyyyk but he lives on Endor...

if the glove dont fit you must acquit

that is why clans are fine and IS are hater crybabies.

[Johnny Z]

Speed and the Clan XL. They can pack some serious super high alphas to.

Last match one alpha burned through my STK's right torso then the CT, dropping it. Yes both were badly damaged but it was still a bit of a shock. Was from a Timber Wolf. Massed CERML are brutal.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 May 2017 - 08:00 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Point 1 is the only real imbalance in the game out of your list.


2. Clan range is not a balance issue. It is balanced. Clan has longer burn times, hotter weapons, must run more DHS. IS beats this by closing the ranging, using higher agility and the sizeable quirks

3. Clan can die via ammo in a torso, if it's already lost a torso or a open CT with ammo in it. CASE does not prevent this. So, irrelevant.

4.1 Yet the most brutal mech in the game, the KDK3, is a Battlemech... Ok.
4.2 If you need ECM to be able to play, or can't play against it... You have bigger problems

5. Yet many Omni mechs, that you said were a huge advantage, are hard locked? The HBR for instance suffers badly from locked tonnage. Again, balanced.

6. Rubbish. Learn to close distance or use IS mechs with range quirks/modules. EG: BLKNT 7 - IS LPL range is LONGER than cERML or BLR1G IS ERLL has the same range as a cERL mech. Again, play to the quirks.

7. I'm very experienced yet I don't agree with 2-6 at all. We only use Clan Tech heavily in comp becuase of #1 in your list.


If you started with point #1 and then added "#2" in that, Clan PPFLD/Poptarting - and stopped there - for balance issues... I'd be wholeheartedly agreeing with you. Most of what you are saying is first and foremost not knowing how to pilot the mechs you are using if you are not performing well in QP/FP.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 10 May 2017 - 08:13 PM.

[Tarogato]

Tiewolf, on 10 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

4. Omnipods (Imho the biggest op asset clan has and imbalance issue)

4.1 Mechbuilds

IS mechs are stuck with their hardpoints or quirks PGI gives them. Omnimechs can build unbelievable Omnipod combinations to costumize/maximize their hardpoints and potential. E.g. Huntsman 8x c-ssrm or Flamer/ER-SL Nova for scouting and many more.

4.2 ECM

IS ECM mechs are stuck to their hardpoints. E.g. Griffin to missles or cataphract well...to a cataphract. There is only a limited use (fixed combat roles) for the IS ECM mechs. Not for Clan Omnimechs. They can field nearly any weapon combination their tonnage enables them to. Thats why in FW (to an extend also in QP) most of the time the Clanteam got multiple ECM protection, which is a great advantage and even more in PUG games with unexperienced players.

Not quite true. Some of the best clan mechs run stock pods, or aren't even omnimechs at all.



- The NVA with 12 cSPL is their best medium brawler right now, and that runs stock pods on the Prime config.
- The Hunchback IIC is their best ranged medium, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Marauder IIC is their best assault, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Orion IIC is one of if not their best heavy brawler, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Jenner IIC is one of the best lights in the game, whether it's SPL or splat, and it's not an omnimech.
- The Maddog is another one of their best heavy brawlers, and it runs stock pods on the A config.
- The Summoner is another one of the best heavy brawlers in the game, and it runs stock B config pods.
- The Viper is their best light and tonnage filler, and it runs stock pods on the C config.
- Splat Stormcrows are usually running the stock D config.
- Some very viable builds on the Cauldron Born use the stock A config pods. Such as gauss PPC, and two UAC10 + backup lasers
- Laservomit can be run on the stock A or particularly the B configs of the Cauldron Born. That stock B is probably the most used mech in the clan arsenal at the moment in CW.
- Night Gyr is the best poptart in the game, and it can be run on the stock Prime or stock hero omnipods.
- Another mech I've been seeing surprisingly often lately is the WHK with quad cERPPC, which is the stock Prime config.


Now for the mechs that do benefit from omnipod swapping:

- Brawler Timberwolf
- Laservomit Timber
- Pinpoint Timber (which isn't quite as good as the NTG running the same build)
- Dual gauss NTG (usually better the the dual PPC NTG, but depends on the map)
- Dakka NTG
- 12 cSPL Stormcrow (rare)
- 12 cSPL Gargoyle (rare)
- Any Hellbringer (which is usually outclassed by the EBJ-B laservomit)
- PPC Summoners (which seem to be kinda rare
- Any Huntsman that isn't dual PPC (which is stock config on the -C)
- Any Ice Ferret (actually relatively common)
- Any Cheetah (admittedly, the best light in the game)



As you can see, there are at least as many battlemech or stock pod omni's that permeate the clan meta, at least when it comes to high level builds.

[R Valentine]

Not to mention some IS weapons are ancient and desperately in need of a redesign. Look at IS ERPPC. Other than flamers, it's the only weapon in the game that generates more heat than it does damage. 13.5 heat for 10 damage? Talk about a useless weapon.

[Vanguard319]

Been losing all night. All these "clans is op" whiners are full of ****. IS can win and win big if you're not incompetent.

[Shifty McSwift]

Tiewolf, on 10 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Clan weapons have longer effective range. Even weapons for 1ton like ER-ML have a reach of 400m+. This is a major factor in all PUG games, easier for unexperient players and on most if not all maps advantageous. Clan mechs can do effective damage without any fear of serious return fire.

The range distinction isn't that much, you are mixing up the ER medium laser ideal of being an ER laser, rather than the IS normal one, so you can't compare them really, the real comparisons are in things like Clan LPL vs IS LPL, in which case clan may get extra range but there is no situation where a clan LPL will out-range an IS LPL to the point the IS LPL does no damage, the tradeoff is the loss of full optimal damage in those kinds of exact scenarios, not IS dealing 0 damage.

Tiewolf, on 10 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

4. Omnipods (Imho the biggest op asset clan has and imbalance issue)

4.1 Mechbuilds

Omnipods are cool, but really not the end all of clan advantage, you usually get a locked engine rate in them, and often the omnipod choices aren't hugely fantastic or unique, there is often only 1 or 2 good ways to deck them out at the end of it.

Tiewolf, on 10 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

6. Restrictions to clantech are often not relevant

E.g. clan weapons generate more heat. But Clan mechs can carry more heatsinks (see 5.) and in many circumstances this extra heat doesn`t matter cause you can disengage and cool down in cover.

Clans only run hotter in the sense their dissipation rates are slower and/or their heatsinks aren't as efficient, the guns may run a bit hotter too, but if you factor in the extra damage they usually deal, its a bit of a wash there.

Tiewolf, on 10 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

So every experienced player who is not bound by nostalgia, stubbornness or what ever to the IS side, switches to clan. Only the unexperienced players and the ones mentioned above stay at IS and the matches in FW get even more unbalanced.

Well it goes further than this too, to the clans within the factions, the clan doing the best out of the options will usually be the first choice of players to join, leading to a further boosting or one sided nature deeper within the system.


Other than that I agree.

[OrmsbyGore]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

Point 1 is the only real imbalance in the game out of your list.


2. Clan range is not a balance issue. It is balanced. Clan has longer burn times, hotter weapons, must run more DHS. IS beats this by closing the ranging, using higher agility and the sizeable quirks

3. Clan can die via ammo in a torso, if it's already lost a torso or a open CT with ammo in it. CASE does not prevent this. So, irrelevant.

4.1 Yet the most brutal mech in the game, the KDK3, is a Battlemech... Ok.
4.2 If you need ECM to be able to play, or can't play against it... You have bigger problems

5. Yet many Omni mechs, that you said were a huge advantage, are hard locked? The HBR for instance suffers badly from locked tonnage. Again, balanced.

6. Rubbish. Learn to close distance or use IS mechs with range quirks/modules. EG: BLKNT 7 - IS LPL range is LONGER than cERML or BLR1G IS ERLL has the same range as a cERL mech. Again, play to the quirks.

7. I'm very experienced yet I don't agree with 2-6 at all. We only use Clan Tech heavily in comp becuase of #1 in your list.


If you started with point #1 and then added "#2" in that, Clan PPFLD/Poptarting - and stopped there - for balance issues... I'd be wholeheartedly agreeing with you. Most of what you are saying is first and foremost not knowing how to pilot the mechs you are using if you are not performing well in QP/FP.

So I have to respectfully disagree with some of your points: Let us assume that the theoretical clan and IS pilots are of equal skill and can make equally beneficial use of terrain and have the same knowledge of the maps.

2- greater range is definitely a big advantage, especially when combined with greater damage. Many clan weapons will be doing max damage long before their IS equivalents get into an effective range. yes, they produce more heat, good thing clan heat sinks only take up 2 slots and can fit places where IS heat sinks can't. coupled with the lower weight and slot requirements of clan weapons, and this isn't really a disadvantage. For example, 2 IS ERLL take up 4 slots and weigh 10 tons. 2 cERLL weigh 8 tons and take up 2 slots, which allows for an extra heat sink with a full ton left over for armor or ammo or whatever.

Also remember that every map is being tweaked to favor a long range snipe/poke style (frozen city is the worst offender, but polar and tourmaline etc. still suck when you're in an srm brawler). Advantage clans

3- In your scenario, a clan mech can be killed by an ammo explosion in a ST if they are already missing a side torso, and an ammo explosion in the CT could result in death. But let's look at it from the IS perspective: both sides can die from an ammo explosion in CT, so that's a wash; IS can die from an ammo explosion in a ST, clan has already got to be down a ST for this to happen, advantage clan; Let's say I'm running an IS mech with xl and ammo in the RA (or RL), and my RT is looking pretty red (armor already stripped). enemy hits my RA, causing an ammo explosion which MIGHT transfer damage into my RT which could potentially kill me. For a clan mech in the same scenario, no danger of death since all your omnipods are C.A.S.E. protected. IS could C.A.S.E. the RA, but it would cost 1 slot and .5 tons (per component if you want to protect more than 1). Advantage, clans.

4.1- the kdk is the most brutal mech because it has 4 high mounted hardpoints where you can run quad gauss with a STD, or 2xcUAC10 and 2xcUAC5 with room for an xl and a bit more space left over. The closest IS can come is quad UAC-5 with STD (way less punch)or 2xUac5 and 2xAC5 with xl (less punch, less DPS, less durability). Advantage clans.

4.2- It's not a question of needing ECM or being able to play against it; ecm is a useful tool, especially at 1 ton and 1 slot, as opposed to 1.5 tons and 2 slots. Also, omnipod setup allows any hellbringer (for example) to carry ECM, not just a particular variant. Avantage clans.

5- while some slots and tonnage are hardlocked, clan tech makes up for it because most weapons and equipment weigh less and use fewer crit slots, as well as not having to dedicate slots and tonnage towards C.A.S.E.. Also, I have never seen a hellbringer that was "suffering" from these limitations. Advantage clans.

6- BK LPL may be longer range than cERML, but IS dedicated 2 slots and 7 tons compared to 1 slot 1 ton for clan, and only gets 4 additional damage, meaning that a second cERML puts the IS LPL behind on the damage front (with 5 tons to spare). And a battlemaster may have ERLL with range on par with cERLL, but it still is doing less damage at that range. Then you have to remember that in order to take full advantage of these quirks, IS mechs often have to run xl engines, which significantly reduces their durability and costs 6 slots (as opposed to 4 for clan). On top of that, quirks are variant specific, so while any clan mech can enjoy the benefits of their cERLL range, only a handful of IS mechs can match that range. The use of modules is irrelevant because they are available to both sides. Advantage clans.


I feel pretty confident in saying that the clans enjoy a massive tech advantage, which is fitting in terms of lore, but makes for terrible game balance (unless you have tonnage restrictions or make it 12v10, 3 lances v 2 stars). and just for comparison's sake, the stock hellbringer prime without machine guns has a 63 point alpha, doing max damage out to 405m. in order to match that, IS needs to field assaults with either some combo of AC 20 and SRMs (losing a large part of their damage potential past 270m (no quirk, no module) or a ridiculous amount of LPLs (at shorter range and damage than their clan equivelants) necessitating xl engines (and losing durability). All, that to counter a 65 ton heavy. with ECM to boot.

TL;DR- clans have a marked tech advantage

Edited by OrmsbyGore, 10 May 2017 - 10:11 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

An IS had a major structure/duration and some cases armour advantage.

Understand & use the advantages each provide - win.


2. There is no range advantage. Fact. The only mech that does outrange is a 5ERL WHK and that is terrain/position dependant. GHP-5P 5ERL also out DMGs the TBR/HBR with it's 4ERL. Plus better duration (0.5s). Learn your mechlab please - or watch MRBC games, the GHP or BLR are brought regularly because they are better.

3. The % change for a ammo from RA to RT etc is so low it's not funny. I run a XL AC2 Mauler with 14T of ammo. I've died once to ammo explosion out of 40 games in it. It's just not an issue.

4.1 - the point was refuting Clan Omni are better. So thanks for agreeing (perhaps read my post again?)
4.2 - Sorry ECM is just not an advantage at upper levels of play. In low teir play yes, but we take ECM OFF our ACH for comp on some maps as it's not needed.

5. You've failed to address locked tonnage of Clan Omni with that argument. Many clan mechs suffer that issue.

6. Shorter burn time, longer range. It is better. IS LPL - 11dmg/7 heat. cERML - 6dmg/6heat. LPL is more heat efficient, then add in heat gen quirks for mechs. A LPL BLKNT7/GHP5H will walk all over a 6cERML HBR for instance.
Your ERL example is, wrong. BLR1G / GHP5P range - 810m - Same as Clan. Clan needs at least a TC3-7 for a decisive range advantage most mechs can't do that. Plus their outright dmg is higher. But once again, duration, duration duration. You fail to realise this is the most important part. 2sec the IS mechs have done thier burn, it takes clan an entire second longer to do theirs. Your mechlab is once again not good enough.
IS XL does not worry me at all - in a proper range trading game you are aiming CT - it's the largest target on Assaults. If you are aiming torso you are doing it wrong, very wrong.


The imbalance is IS XL - fix that, the game is just about balanced. Each side has it's advantages/disadvantages and it is up to the player to understand them both. I know them all inside and out and perform well in all of them for a reason, probably why my Avg Match score is quite a bit higher than yours.

[justcallme A S H]

Too many simply don't play to the quirks, they don't use the advantages, then say Clan has a huge advantage. Yeah I'll agree Clan has advantages - cXL / PPFLD Poptart.

However if you mechlab properly, that huge advantage comes down significantly as that is where the battle is often lost as IS. The advantage is still there, but it's nothing like people claim.

Honestly right now balance is the best it has been for a long time. And here we have ST about to come along and totally break it for IS.

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 10 May 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

But once again, duration, duration duration. You fail to realise this is the most important part. 2sec the IS mechs have done thier burn, it takes clan an entire second longer to do theirs. Your mechlab is once again not good enough.

Gotta jump on here. With group chainfire, such as 3x3 ERLL on the BLR-1G, total time spent on firing is 1.25 + 0.5 = 1.75 second.

When using CERLLs, such as 2x2 with Hellbringer, total time spend on firing is 1.5 + 0.5 = 2 seconds. So duration wise, there is only 1/8 difference.

Not that big of a duration difference as you claimed.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 May 2017 - 10:33 PM.