30 replies to this topic

[MadCat02]

Forgive me but I am a bit rusty on what happened in mechwarrior while I was gone .

What happened to 10 vs 12 .balancing for clans ? Any balancng for that matter .

Like how you justify putting only Inner Sphere mechs vs Clans on equal grounds . So if you play more expnesive mechs in faction mode you just get free target practise with better weapon

It does not seem like Clans get any significant disadvantage . It just C-Bills wins mode

Edited by MadCat02, 01 January 2016 - 03:56 PM.

[Vlad Striker]

Any mech with equal equipment costs equal. So clan chasis price matches with IS mech with the same upgrade. Energy and ballistics and heatsinks also balanced so no need to do 10vs12.

[MadCat02]

Vlad Striker, on 01 January 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

Any mech with equal equipment costs equal. So clan chasis price matches with IS mech with the same upgrade. Energy and ballistics and heatsinks also balanced so no need to do 10vs12.

Energy and Ballistics are also balanced ? Well that is a load of crap .

What about clan XL engines ? Those are balanced too I suppose .

Edited by MadCat02, 01 January 2016 - 04:11 PM.

[Vlad Striker]

Yes, we have ultra AC that shoot twice as much as IS AC but each shot divided by several shells. IS AC always shoot 1 shell at time. Clan laser hot and have more continued action time. Clan heat sinks have less capacity and so on.

[MadCat02]

Vlad Striker, on 01 January 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

Yes, we have ultra AC that shoot twice as much as IS AC but each shot divided by several shells. IS AC always shoot 1 shell at time. Clan laser hot and have more continued action time. Clan heat sinks have less capacity and so on.

Balancing of a weapon is not defined by flat stats . Clan weapons are superior in application . They kill much faster for same or lower tonnage and little more heat does not change that nor slightly different fire mechanic

Clan ballistic versions are way better . I never had trouble with their burst mode which in some situations is better than 1 bullet (like shooting light mechs in legs).

Clan weapons are better . Faction warfare needs something to make Clans vs InnerSphere balanced, not fanboism .

Edited by MadCat02, 01 January 2016 - 04:33 PM.

[Wintersdark]

MadCat02, on 01 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Balancing of a weapon is not defined by flat stats . Clan weapons are superior in application . They kill much faster for same tonnage and little more heat does not change that nor slightly different fire mechanic

Well, no.

If anything, right now, clans are the weaker faction. I don't hold to that, mind you - I think they're pretty balanced right now. But there's a good argument they are

Clan UAC's spread damage, whereas IS AC/UAC's focus damage on one target segment. UAC's theoretically can put out more damage, but rapid firing them actually only adds a very small amount of DPS overall due to 5 second jams.

Clan lasers are theoretically better, but in practice IS lasers can be utilized better. On both sides, the LPL is the best of the lot, but while Clans can run two before hitting ghost heat limits IS can run three. IS massed LL builds are also very effective, as 3LL is very comparable to 2 Clan LPL's.

Clan XL's are still better, but by a small margin. Clan mechs that lose a side torso now suffer a substantial speed and cooling penalty, in addition to lost heat sinks.

Clan missiles are ostensibly better, but cSRM's spread more than IS SRM's, cLRM's have lower DPS (longer cycle times) and are LRM's, so who cares. Worse, there are severe reliability issues with SRM's right now; very often they simply don't do anything at all.

But the real balancing key is IS Structural/Armor quirks. IS mechs like the Blackjack have the internal structure of a 100t Clan Assault, with +28 center torso, 24 side torso, and 22 arm/leg structure quirks. Atlas? +30ish CT structure. TDR? Strong weapon quirks, as well as substantial side torso structural buffs.

Basically, the better IS mechs have all a mix between strong structural buffs making them require substantially more damage to kill, to heavy weapon buffs making their offensive ability largely comparable to clans.

Clans are absolutely no longer overpowered. I'm not saying they're underpowered, or all hard done by or some other random apologist lake of tears, but they're certainly not overpowered.

[MadCat02]

Wintersdark, on 01 January 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Well, no.

If anything, right now, clans are the weaker faction. I don't hold to that, mind you - I think they're pretty balanced right now. But there's a good argument they are

Clan UAC's spread damage, whereas IS AC/UAC's focus damage on one target segment. UAC's theoretically can put out more damage, but rapid firing them actually only adds a very small amount of DPS overall due to 5 second jams.

Clan lasers are theoretically better, but in practice IS lasers can be utilized better. On both sides, the LPL is the best of the lot, but while Clans can run two before hitting ghost heat limits IS can run three. IS massed LL builds are also very effective, as 3LL is very comparable to 2 Clan LPL's.

Clan XL's are still better, but by a small margin. Clan mechs that lose a side torso now suffer a substantial speed and cooling penalty, in addition to lost heat sinks.

Clan missiles are ostensibly better, but cSRM's spread more than IS SRM's, cLRM's have lower DPS (longer cycle times) and are LRM's, so who cares. Worse, there are severe reliability issues with SRM's right now; very often they simply don't do anything at all.

But the real balancing key is IS Structural/Armor quirks. IS mechs like the Blackjack have the internal structure of a 100t Clan Assault, with +28 center torso, 24 side torso, and 22 arm/leg structure quirks. Atlas? +30ish CT structure. TDR? Strong weapon quirks, as well as substantial side torso structural buffs.

Basically, the better IS mechs have all a mix between strong structural buffs making them require substantially more damage to kill, to heavy weapon buffs making their offensive ability largely comparable to clans.

Clans are absolutely no longer overpowered. I'm not saying they're underpowered, or all hard done by or some other random apologist lake of tears, but they're certainly not overpowered.

"3LL is very comparable to 2 Clan"

Sure they are . Especially in the total tonnage .

Edited by MadCat02, 01 January 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[Wintersdark]

MadCat02, on 01 January 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

"3LL is very comparable to 2 Clan"

Sure they are . Especially in the total tonnage .

Look at the whole package, don't cherrypick ****.

Mechs running trios of LL's typically sport multiple 10% bonuses to weapon stats, or have much more structure to soak damage. 3 LL does 27 damage. 2 cLPL does 26. 3LL generates 21 heat vs. 20 heat for 2 LPL.

The cLPL needs to do more damage to kill than the LL do, due to increased structure (or the LL are more heat efficient, etc).

3 ISLPL is very dangerous, pushing 33 damage for 21 heat (compare to 26 damage@20 heat for 2cLPL), and deal that damage in .67s making it very easy to focus all 33 damage into one component.

The ghost heat changes mean those weapons can be used more effectively.

Now, lets consider the DHS differences.

Clan DHS have a much nerfed capacity - 1.3 per DHS, rather than 1.5. Thus, Clan mechs (already using hotter weapons) spike heat very high when firing.

Have you not looked at quirks these days? Those structural quirks matter. They have a very substantial impact. You certainly don't see Clans running roughshod over IS in CW now.

I run my IS mechs in the public queue rather than my Clan mechs, simply because they are vastly harder.

Seen a Catapult K2 since the buffs? New hitboxes, and:
Additional Structure Center Torso+21
Additional Structure L/R Arm+20
Additional Armor L/R Arm+20
Additional Structure L/R Torso+15
Additional Structure L/R Leg+15
Ballistic Weapon Range20%
Ballistic Weapon Velocity20%
Energy Weapon Heat Generation-10%
PPC Velocity40%
Laser Duration-15%
Acceleration45%
Deceleration5%
Turn Rate25%
Torso Yaw Speed

A Catapult K2 can take an extra 20 damage to it's (now much smaller) CT and still have MORE structure remaining than a HBR/EBJ does in total.

---

There is a LOT more behind the scenes that has changed lately. Try not to embarass yourself, and learn before you cry.

[Wintersdark]

And all those poor, poor Marauders about...

MAD-3R:

Additional Structure Center Torso+23
Additional Structure L/R Arm+12
Additional Structure L/R Torso+16
Additional Structure L/R Leg+16
Ballistic Weapon Range10%
Ballistic Weapon Velocity10%
PPC Heat Generation-10%
Energy Weapon Heat Generation-5%
PPC Velocity50%
Acceleration50%
Deceleration50%
Turn Rate35%
Torso Yaw Speed45%

Look at the agility buffs. These things *dance* around Timberwolves. They bring heavy firepower, enough structure to soak a hell of a lot of extra damage. As well, this happened at the same time as pilot skills where severely nerfed. Now, those heavier Clan mechs lost a lot of their advantages. Direwolves are simply too slow to be viable in a great many instances (though they still present a lot of firepower); they've lost so much agility they are easily out-maneuvered even by faster heavies, let alone lights.

Now, again, I'm not saying Clans are underpowered - I keep repeating this, just to avoid ridiculous strawman arguments. But the reality is that IS is in a very good place now, with mechs sporting very substantial defensive and mobility related buffs, or heavy offensive buffs. A LOT has changed.

Edited by Wintersdark, 01 January 2016 - 05:06 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

MadCat02, on 01 January 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Forgive me but I am a bit rusty on what happened in mechwarrior while I was gone .

What happened to 10 vs 12 .balancing for clans ? Any balancng for that matter .

Like how you justify putting only Inner Sphere mechs vs Clans on equal grounds . So if you play more expnesive mechs in faction mode you just get free target practise with better weapon

It does not seem like Clans get any significant disadvantage . It just C-Bills wins mode

Go on thinking that. But be sure and check out the Faction Warfare map, and see what's going on there now. Or better yet, go do a couple IS vs. Clan drops. Then come back and tell me that Clan mechs are any better right now. G'head. I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU.

[Rogue Jedi]

the TBR and SCR are still better than there IS equivalents but not by that much most other Clan Mechs are roughly equal to their IS equivalents, note I mean equal in combat effectiveness not in firepower or armor

[Koniving]

Short of 'laser vomit', say boatloads of ER MLs at 6 at a time with previous DHS capacity, Clans have been a joke for a while. Clan autocannons were worse, but no one would use them because they spread so much, and IS had and still has the only "one shot kills all" weapon combination (twin AC/20s).

Dire Wolf? 1 shot.
Timber Wolf? 1 shot.
Stormcrow? 1 shot. (If they hold still or slow down enough; that bouncy cockpit's hard to hit).
"Pro Clan Skillz?" 1 shot.
IS wins. 28 tons + ammo.

Clan's weapon combination with similar effectiveness that doesn't instantly blow you up? 13 ER PPCs. Only thing they have that compares. 78 tons plus heatsinks. (Strange that 13 ER PPCs won't instantly kill you, but 5 ER PPCs will, and 4 ER PPCs is near suicide and often still won't do what twin IS AC/20s will). Just be prepared to sit for 3 minutes if you don't want to die.

So I wouldn't go worrying about that "ton" problem.

The Clan laser vomit issue has been significantly reduced by changing DHS thresholds. Clan heatsinks can't handle as much heat overall (by 0.1 unit less per DHS), but each cools 0.01% faster per second than IS DHS, rendering Clan weapons to be more DPS oriented requiring more 'face time' while IS weapons are more "Pop and shoot" oriented, allowing IS mechs to spread damage, aim in to deliver devastating damage and then spread again.

(Edit)
I would like to add this:
Clan mechs are DPS oriented, requiring more skill to keep crosshairs on the target while firing (which can be harder than one might think). This does allow some opportunities that IS doesn't have, like partial "grazing" damage delivered by autocannons, or LRMs that stream fire so when the first tidbit doesn't hit the rest might (unlike IS where if there's an obstacle they all probably didn't hit). Keeping crosshairs perfectly on target is more difficult at range, which is ironic since the main Clan advantage is range. Sure, Clan lasers also do more damage, but those longer beam times actually reduce firing frequency, and in the end the amount of damage they do over time in a 10 second cycle compared to unquirked firing rates is barely superior. Against quirked firing rates, either on par with weaker quirks or clearly inferior against the more moderately quirked firing rates.

IS mechs are focused on heavy damage in tight spots. Their pop and squat style of weapons would be great at range, except IS generally lack range (it is great against Clan range though to pop out and hide before the barrage hits). IS mechs without quirks already have superior firing rates, but with quirks included their firing rates help better equate damage potential. Many IS mechs in the missile department can almost double the damage output of Clan counter parts within a short amount of time, furthermore the quirked IS autocannons can nearly rival "UAC" double-tap damage if the UACs didn't jam; once you factor that in... it's GG Clans, IS is OP.

The problem here is pretty simple. Getting close enough to deliver the damage. That is the only thing the IS has to figure out, and that boils down to player skill. IS needs to Get Close to Devastate! Ambushes work. Some sneaky craftiness like the IS is canonically known for, such as getting in behind the Clans and taking them out from both sides works wonders if done effectively against unwary Clanners. Often, Clan mechs built for laser vomit can't "keep it up," and so once a Clanner fires 2 or 3 times in succession, RUSH because they can't do **** to stop you! And Dire Wolves? Run circles and laugh. Or heck, just stand on its head and kill all its teammates.


Ride the enemy, shoot his teammates. Or in this case, I was used in order to create a 5 AMS walking death machine and to allow the Adder to "Sharp shoot" over canyons without being on the canyon.

Far as XL engines, even without the penalties for losing a third of the engine, Clan mechs have significantly larger side torsos on ~most~ mechs than any IS counterpart. Stormcrow's about the only exception, but lets be honest if you're not shooting the legs of a Stormcrow then you deserve what you get. They're so big, they're so weak, it's so easy!

Edited by Koniving, 02 January 2016 - 04:56 AM.

[Luminis]

Did you know that the 45-ton Blackjack BJ-3 has a total "health" (structure + armour + quirks) of 629? A Catapult K-2, weighing in at 65 tons, has 800.

To put that into perspective: The Timber Wolf manages 699 at 75 tons.

Seems to me like higher firepower on Clan side is offset by higher durability on IS side. IS weapons are more heat efficient as well... My current IS 'Mechs can actually out out more damage before shutting down than my Clan 'Mechs, going by Li Song's MechLab.

I don't think you can just look at an IS LPL and a Clan LPL and come to any meaningful conclusions about balance based on that. Not with the huge impact chassis specific quirks have.

[MechWarrior Black Knight]

i had now like 5 games in a row where IS Steam noobs (no unit) in (C) mechs was rollled in like 48-10 against clans average ppl not talking about 10 man premades from jadefalcon

another match 48-23 for clans
another drop ghost drop , no enemy
48-18 - for clans
48-18 for IS this time
43-24 IS won end of time

Edited by MechWarriorBK, 02 January 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

MechWarriorBK, on 02 January 2016 - 04:12 AM, said:

i had now like 5 games in a row where IS Steam noobs (no unit) in (C) mechs was rollled in like 48-10 against clans average ppl not talking about 10 man premades from jadefalcon

another match 48-23 for clans
another drop ghost drop , no enemy

that is the problem, Faction Play (also known as Community Warfare) is designed as hard core mode, there is even a disclaimer flash up when you go to Faction Play warning you of this, you were warned it is hardcore mode, if you play you may get lucky and end up as a filler for an 8+ person elite group, against a team of new players or even another group, or you could get put with a team of new players against a elite 12 person group.

if you think it is just that the Clan Mechs are OP I strongly suggest when your contract with Steiner ends switching to one of the Clan factions and see what happens, if Clans are as OP as you seem to think you will have no problem if you take Clan Trial Mechs against IS Mechs ^{(but you will hit exactly the same problems you are having, new player getting steamrolled by veterans)}

if you want fair stick to solo queue, however you have a better chance of getting a fair CW game if you drop on a planet where a large group wants 1 person to form the game ^{(large groups tend to be more experienced players)} than if you form on a world where only solo players are queuing. also IS v IS or Clan v Clan tends to attract less veteran players, so avoid Clan V IS if you want a fairer fight.

if you are still not getting good games then join a unit and drop with experienced players, after all that is what CW was intended for.
find a unit here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-inner-sphere/
http://mwomercs.com/...factions-clans/
http://mwomercs.com/...ons-merc-corps/
or just look at my signature

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 02 January 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[Vlad Striker]

Thunderbolt can shoot TWICE with mpl (~80 dmg) when Timber Wolf can shoot the ONE volley (~50 dmg). The only option to win with clans - to keep distance and to have 2-3 echelon in formation.

[MechWarrior Black Knight]

im Steiner for 16 years (from MW3-4) so i stay here.

[Rogue Jedi]

MechWarriorBK, on 02 January 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

im Steiner for 16 years (from MW3-4) so i stay here.

fair enough, I was just suggesting the best way you could judge for yourself if Clans rearly are superior because our explanations do not seem to be convincing you.

[Good_Cat]

Moaning about the way Clans are OP, is down to pilot skill and builds.
You often wont match a Clan for outright firepower and range but the offset is Clan doesn't cool and efficiently, we tend to run generally hotter, we don't have the weapon quirks you do (heat gen,cooldown), then there's the structure / armor / mobility quirks, better hitboxes i'm looking at you Marauder / Catapult / Stalker (they take such a beating before you put them down for good), then there's locked tonnage (jumpjets) limiting builds and we also have negative quirks.

And about (i'm being generous) 1/3 of my Clan mechs chassis' are f*useless, like the: i'll match tonnages
Executioner, Gargoyle, Summoner, Caldron Born, CuteFox, Shadow Cat, Ice Ferret, Mist Lynx, Artic Cheetah
when compared to
Banshee, Awesome, Warhammer / Archer, Catapult / Jagermech / Thunderbolt, Blackjack/ / Phoenix Hawk, then the lights where to start the selection of Ravens, Jenners, Panthers and have you tried shooting a Locust at full chat recently they are the size of a pixel and the Pirates Bane even has ECM.

Clans do have advantages but the mechs usually need a better skill levels to make effective use of them, Heat Management learning curve is a cliff, learn or die.

PS. Stop building LRM Atlas's, stop putting XL's in everything especially Atlas's and stop face tanking UAC-40 DireWolves and Kodiaks in 55ton Mechs.

Edited by Good_Cat, 06 July 2016 - 06:39 AM.

[Lily from animove]

MadCat02, on 01 January 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Energy and Ballistics are also balanced ? Well that is a load of crap .

What about clan XL engines ? Those are balanced too I suppose .

it's not, in fact Is has some better heat efficient lasers as well as better ac's because pinpoint.

it amazes me all the tiem to see those yellow labbeled T1s speaking stuff that is far from how the games truth looks like.

And looking how you compare wepaons, then well, sry you hardly have an idea about what matters.
I would instantly tarde all clan ultras for IS ac's. c-ermds for IS meds. in fact only the cERPPC the gauss and the lrm's are superior but onyl by a tiny margin.

MechWarriorBK, on 02 January 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

im Steiner for 16 years (from MW3-4) so i stay here.

lie and excuse harder mr rasalhague flagged player.

looks like after 16 and a half year you stopped being a steiner

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 July 2016 - 06:47 AM.