99 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

ok this has come up acouple times,
that said i would like to talk Balance, but only Upgrade balance,
(please lets leave IS-XL & C-DHS & Clan Weapons out of this)
ok with that lets get going,


as its unlikely that PGI will change IS-Endo/Ferro from being less than 14Crits,
i propose that perhaps we should increase the benefit of both instead,


=IS-Endo=
right now you get a 5% Tonnage Savings, based on Mech Tonnage,
(a 20Ton Mech will save 1Ton)(a 100Ton Mech will save 5Tons)
-
perhaps this should be increased to 7.5%, giving more tonnage to IS for more Crits,
this would help Balance IS Weapons being Heavier wail also not breaking Stock Builds,
(a 20Ton Mech will save 1.5Ton)(a 100Ton Mech will save 7.5Tons)
this would be a +50% Buff to IS-Endo,

=IS-Ferro=
right now you get a 12% Tonnage Savings, based on Mech Tonnage,
(a 20Ton Mech will save 0.5Ton)(a 100Ton Mech will save 2Tons)
-
perhaps this should be increased to 24%, giving more tonnage to IS for more Crits,
this would help Balance IS Weapons being Heavier wail also not breaking Stock Builds,
this also means that (Light-Ferro would save 12%) & (Heavy-Ferro would save 48%)
(a 20Ton Mech will save 1Ton)(a 100Ton Mech will save 4Tons)
this would be a +100% Buff to IS-Ferro,


these changes would be to keep IS and Clan Diffrent still but closer to balance,
which is again why ive opted to increase the Buff not decrease the Crits,

=(Poll)=

thoughts, comments, concerns?
thanks,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 12 May 2017 - 06:18 PM.

[Khobai]

The problem with your idea is that it makes Endo even more of a crutch for IS mechs. Except for a few fringe builds, there will not be any IS mechs that dont take Endo.

Endo, Endo Light, and STD all need to be roughly equal choices. Otherwise there is no point in having all three exist in the game.

I would worry more about balancing IS choices against eachother before you worry about balancing them vs Clan.

Its actually STD structure that needs the biggest buff. Not Endo. Because STD structure is the one no one uses. Especially Clans.

Edited by Khobai, 12 May 2017 - 06:32 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Khobai
well its only increase by 50% where as Ferro is Doubled(+100%)
also if heavy Ferro ever gets added at 48% savings thats nearly 8-8.5 Tons,
for only 21 Slots 8Tons would be huge and would be taken over Endo defiantly,

[Y E O N N E]

A few fringe builds are already the only ones that don't take Endo. The same is true for Clan BattleMechs.

That said, I'd rather just make the stuff that you can fit actually worth their resource costs.

[Khobai]

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A few fringe builds are already the only ones that don't take Endo.

All the more reason to fix the problem.

Buff STD structure so its worth considering vs Endo.

Quote

That said, I'd rather just make the stuff that you can fit actually worth their resource costs.

Except IS players gladly take Endo over STD already. So its obviously worth its resource cost. If it wasnt worth it, people wouldnt use on on nearly every mech.

Its Ferro that isnt worth it. Because Endo is way better for the same cost. And the cost of taking Endo+Ferro together is too prohibitive for most non-light mechs. Ferro needs a huge buff and im fine with that.

But buffing Endo just makes the choice between Endo and STD structure even less of a choice than it already is. Thats not acceptable.

Edited by Khobai, 12 May 2017 - 06:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

That just gets my weapons crit out before I actually die, rendering me just as useless as being dead. Now, if you want it to buff the armor instead...

[Khobai]

Quote

That just gets my weapons crit out before I actually die, rendering me just as useless as being dead. Now, if you want it to buff the armor instead...

it makes no sense for structure to buff armor.

structure is structure its not armor.

and if your mech actually lives long enough for all its weapons to get critted out that means you lived longer than most typical mechs which die without their weapons getting critted out. so I dont really see how staying alive longer than most other mechs is a valid complaint at all. although I would not be opposed to STD structure adding some crit chance (receiving) if its really an issue.

again if we have both STD and ENDO in the game then both need to be choices. especially with a third choice of ENDO Light being added. all three need to be equal choices. balance those choices first then worry about IS vs clan balance afterwards.

Edited by Khobai, 12 May 2017 - 06:49 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 May 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

That just gets my weapons crit out before I actually die, rendering me just as useless as being dead. Now, if you want it to buff the armor instead...

Khobai, on 12 May 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

it makes no sense for structure to buff armor.

structure is structure its not armor.

well right now both Ferro & Endo are just Tonnage saving tools,
both are nothing more than that, which perhaps need to change but thats a different discussion,

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 12 May 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

it makes no sense for structure to buff armor.

It actually does, if you consider that armor has to be mounted to something. It's not even a small jump of logic to conclude that a sturdier chassis allows for the mounting of sturdier armor. It's not quite as intuitive, I'll grant you that, but mechanically it works.

Quote

and if your mech actually lives long enough for all its weapons to get critted out that means you lived longer than most other mechs live without their weapons getting critted out. so I dont really see how living longer than most other mechs is a valid complaint at all.

It's not a complaint so much as a statement that you lose more than you gain by trading significant payload for increased structure. I live much longer than that by being faster or more offensively capable than I can by soaking damage I'd rather avoid in the first place. Like, Endo buys me three extra heatsinks on a 75 ton 'Mech. That's not chump change, that's the difference between getting pushed and being the one doing the pushing.

[Lupis Volk]

No. PGI should not balance by potato.

[Khobai]

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well right now both Ferro & Endo are just Tonnage saving tools,

but the only real way to buff STD structure is to give it increased internal structure.

for example STD structure could give +25% internal structure and perhaps -10% to crit chance (receiving)

so youd get the same 5% weight savings as endo but in the form of internal structure and crit protection instead.

Quote

It actually does, if you consider that armor has to be mounted to something. It's not even a small jump of logic to conclude that a sturdier chassis allows for the mounting of sturdier armor. It's not quite as intuitive, I'll grant you that, but mechanically it works.

again that makes no sense.

just because sturdier structure allows you to mount sturdier armor doesnt mean that normal armor is going to become sturdier though. its still just normal armor.

I mean id be okay with having a stronger type of armor like hardened armor, which weighs twice as much as normal armor, added to the game and having it only be useable with standard structure. that makes sense. but its entirely different from what you suggested.

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It's not a complaint so much as a statement that you lose more than you gain by trading significant payload for increased structure. I live much longer than that by being faster or more offensively capable than I can by soaking damage

except not all mechs can go faster or mount more weapons even if they take ENDO. An atlas for example. An atlas would gladly use STD structure over Endo if it got a significant structure bonus out of it. Especially the Atlas-D since it gets a crit chance (receiving) quirk.

The point is ENDO vs STD should be a choice. People should not always choose ENDO 99% of the time. That is bad game balance. Period.

So again... endo, endo light, standard structure all need to be equally balanced with eachother. And thats more important than balancing them IS endo vs clan endo. Theres other ways to balance IS vs Clans. And even clans have the same problem with standard structure not being worth it for them, so its a clan problem too.

Edited by Khobai, 13 May 2017 - 12:42 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Lupis Volk, on 12 May 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

No. PGI should not balance by potato.

um explain? how would this be balancing by potato?

[Koniving]

Andi..

Right now, Endo and Ferro save you weight.
That's their point, that's their purpose. They do what they are intended to do and you make the decision to use them. Since Endo is very frequently used, clearly it works as is.

Ferro, not so much. If Ferro could allow you to carry the same weight in armor...but as such more armor, well then hot diggity damn a lot of people would use it. But then why would you use regular armor?

What would compel you to use the STANDARD structure over the endo steel? That's where your balancing concern needs to be. If you do not make all choices valid, then having the choice itself is also invalid. What reason do we have to use standard structure? In Battletech the reason is attrition. Here, there's no repair and rearm and no supply-and-demand to concern ourselves with, thus right now there is no reason to ever use standard structure aside from having a few extra slots. Gimme one reason to put standard structure on a light, and you will have your balance. Without a valid reason to put standard structure on a light or medium mech, there will never be 'balance'.

Buffing the only useful thing isn't about balance, it's about invalidating choice, invalidating content, and invalidating structure as anything beyond a mandatory tax.



Other things to consider:

Edited by Koniving, 12 May 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Koniving,
i agree, a Ferro rework could be amazing, and help Distinguish it from Endo,
but this Topic isnt about a Ferro rework, but a Buff to both to help Balance them having more Crits than Clans,
for this topic im just discussing the Viability of buffing both Endo and Ferros weight savings,

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 12 May 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

again that makes no sense.

just because sturdier structure allows you to mount sturdier armor doesnt mean that normal armor is going to become sturdier though.

I mean id be okay with having a stronger type of armor like hardened armor, which weighs twice as much as normal armor, added to the game and having it only be useable with standard structure. that makes sense. but its entirely different from what you suggested.

It does make sense. You are trying to think about it in MechWarrior terms, but that's not what I'm working under; I'm operating more under an introductory-level education of real world mechanics of materials.

If my mounting points can only take so much load, that means I need a certain amount of give in the armor to avoid damage to the structure on impact. If my mounting points can take a greater load, I can use a more rigid plate. It doesn't necessarily have to weigh more per volume or anything like that, it's just the properties of the material have changed. A more rigid plate (I guess, more accurately, a plate with greater hardness) is more difficult for a projectile to penetrate. That particular, more rigid material could also have a higher heat of vaporization, making it more resistant to laser fire.

So like I said: it's not intuitive, but it does make sense.

[Khobai]

the problem is you need to balance endo, endo light, and standard structure.

because internally balancing the three choices is more important, buffing endo is a dead end for balancing IS vs clan.

you have to find a different way to balance IS vs Clan.

Quote

It does make sense. You are trying to think about it in MechWarrior terms, but that's not what I'm working under; I'm operating more under an introductory-level education of real world mechanics of materials.

again it doesnt make sense.

say you have a car with a wood structure and wood armor and a car with a steel structure and wood armor. youre still going to have wood armor in both cases. having a steel structure doesnt change the wood into something else, its still wood. having a steel structure would let you use steel armor though.

so like I said id be okay with hardened armor being added but only being able to use it with standard structure. that makes sense.

Edited by Khobai, 12 May 2017 - 07:13 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Khobai,
thats all well and good, and i would support a Endo / Ferro rework,
but thats not what this topics about, but giving the IS versions of these Upgrades a Buff,
to better balance them taking up double the Crits than their Clan Counterparts,

[Koniving]

If you're trying to balance IS versus Clan with Endo, it's a dead-end tree. If you change the weight savings, you change a lot of **** at the core level.

If you want to see IS vs Clan balance, consider when Clans were first introduced. Their Large Lasers and Large Pulse Lasers did 11 and 11.6 damage respectively versus IS 9 and 10.6 respectively, (now it's 11 and 13 versus 9 and 11). In the source material, it's 8 and 9 for the IS, and 10 and 10 for the Clans. So why are the Clan LPLs doing 2 units of damage above the IS when the source is only one unit higher? That's the result of buffing the Clans. Which came from all the quirks we got.

Another example, Clan UACs went from 2, 3, 4 and 5 shots to deliver 1, 1.67, 2.5, and 4 damage to 1, 2, 3 and 4 shots to deliver 2, 2.5, 3.33 and 5 damage respectively. Why, other than a Clan buff? There's a myriad of buffs the Clans have received in the last three years. No real nerfs beyond a ghost heat fix, just an endless stream of buffs.

The IS, too, has had an endless stream of buffs.
Everyone's getting buffed. Everything's getting buffed. Where does it end? When does everything collapse under the power creep?

(On a related topic to my point, Clan UAC versus AC balance would be easy to validate the choice of using Clan ACs over Clan UACs: If Clan UACs did 2, 3, 4, and 5 shots... then Clan ACs could deliver 1, 2, 3 and 4 shots to net their damage. Then you have the choice, UAC's double tap function or AC's FLD. Same concept here with Structure.. We have all the reason in the world to use Endo, in fact it's mandatory! Where's the reason to use STD structure?)

Your topic is whether or not we should give the Endo / Ferro a buff to help with IS / Clan balance.

We're giving the reasons that they should NOT be, because it is barking up the wrong tree and invalidating the existence of other options that really need to have their existence be validated.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 12 May 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

the problem is you need to balance endo, endo light, and standard structure.

because internally balancing the three choices is more important, buffing endo is a dead end for balancing IS vs clan.

you have to find a different way to balance IS vs Clan.



again it doesnt make sense.

say you have a car with a wood structure and wood armor and a car with a steel structure and wood armor. youre still going to have wood armor in both cases. having a steel structure doesnt change the wood into something else, its still wood. having a steel structure would let you use steel armor though.

so like I said id be okay with hardened armor being added but only being able to use it with standard structure. that makes sense.

Armor plating in BattleTech is not a fixed formula. That is the mistake you are making. There's a fundamental component to it, i.e. Ferro-Fibrous, but it's a mixture of substances blended together into ablative protection.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Koniving,
i dont think its a dead end tree,
this Change would give IS more tonnage to play with, this may lead to more weapon boating True,
but with this i would also like to test, and perhaps lessen IS weapon Quirks, Quirks i dont believe in,
Structure Quirks ok, but weapon Quirks? i just cant agree with,

also this buff though would change things, wouldnt break any Lore Builds,
and it would Bring Clan and IS closer, even if only Ferro is Changed,
this brings both closer without making both the same,

i would rather see Endo / Ferro get a Buff,
then see their Crits reduced to Clan levels,

also STD structure is already invalidated by Endo, what i propose would not change this,
i would love to see with this a -15%Crit Chance(7.5x2) for all STD Structure IS Mechs(10% for Clan)
as well as a +24%Max Armor for Ferro(20% for Clans) to make both Viable options,
perhaps give STD armor -24%Crit as well(-20% for Clan) to help as well,
but as i said before, thats another Topic

im not disagreeing with you Koniving,
its just im looking to get my Car Battery Charged(a Buff), your saying my Batteries old and i need a new one(rework)
i agree i need a new Battery, but thats a topic for another time, which should be a topic, but its not this topic,