342 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Dude this thread is turning out really nice.. I'll add a couple soonish... I got 2 Nova's that rock!

[Bud Crue]

JC Daxion, on 22 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Dude this thread is turning out really nice.. I'll add a couple soonish... I got 2 Nova's that rock!

Groovy. I'll update the index again tonight. Get those novas in and any other builld trees you care to share.

[Nightmare1]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

nope it doesnt internal heatsink (2.0) come from the engine itself not the ones you place inside it they just extra slots they still count as 1.5 external heatsink

It general misconception people have, thinking external heat sink means dhs not stored inside the engine. while external are actually any heatsink the player add on be it in or outside the engine slot. It also why 250 engine is the minimum engine for any heat based mech to get the 10 max internals dhs.

it pretty easy to test it grab an assault with highest xl 400 a high heat weapon and put heat sinks only in the engine and then move them outside the engine. You will see no difference in heat management in the mechlab or test it in the testground.

I double-checked, and you're right. DHS that are stored outside the engine core, even if using the extra engine slots, still don't give the full 2.0.

That being said, I thought it was 1.4, not 1.5?

[Palfatreos]

Nightmare1, on 22 May 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

I double-checked, and you're right. DHS that are stored outside the engine core, even if using the extra engine slots, still don't give the full 2.0.

That being said, I thought it was 1.4, not 1.5?

it was 1.4 put idk which patch few months ago it was buffed to 1,5 if my meory serves me right

[Palfatreos]

So i did a test on night gyr on 2 maps (vitric forge, frozen city) with 2 erppc no extra heatsink (10 extr,2 internal from engine locked) standing still.

0 heat cont node : game gimme 52% heat both map. theory 100*28 heat /53 heat cap = 52.83 %

5 heat cont node : game gimme 48% heat both map.
Theory 100*28/60.95 = 45.94% (heat cont affect both 30 base cap and addiaontal heatsink.
Theory 100*28/57.5 = 48.70% (heat cont only affect 30 base cap which mean + 0.9 heat cap per node)

So it seems PGI was wrong about there own mechanic if they ever stated that. (cant be arsed to test it further in detail though this as far i go)

[Nightmare1]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

it was 1.4 put idk which patch few months ago it was buffed to 1,5 if my meory serves me right

I think that's correct. If I recall, they buffed the cooling rate, but lowered the cap.

[Bud Crue]

Updated through #187

[Wildstreak]

So we can have more than 1 entry?
Now for a more specific build that is both meta and non-meta.

The Hunchback-4H Laser Boat

The Build

This is meta for being a Laser Boat and non-meta for being on the 'worst' Hunchback.

I was running this before the May 16 patch for several months since I noticed the 4H had the best generic all Energy Heat Gen Quirk. The 4P had the same but only for Medium Lasers, anything else was 5% less. With only 5 Energy points, I had to mix different laser types, this build is 2 damage points less than using AC10 + 5MLs. I also tried 2LPLs + 3MLs, how it ran depended on how you got the extra 4 tons needed for weapons (lowering engine to 250, reducing DHS, reducing armor) but it always ran hotter, not everyone likes that.

Now a 4H has 10% better Heat Gen and 15% better Cooldown than a 4P. Without its quirk, 2LLs + 3MLs on this build currently makes 42% heat (tested on a 4J built the same way), with quirk but no skills it is 36%.


The trees:

Weapons 41
Improving on the builtin Heat Gen means taking every Heat Gen Node possible, a little over half the Cooldown Nodes, every Range Node and 3 of 4 Duration Nodes. The Heat should be closer to 30% now without the Operations Nodes from an alpha strike with improved reach, cooldown reduced by roughly three-quarters of a second and about 0.1 seconds off the facetime.

Agility 18
Nodes on the right side were preferred to improve movement though Speed Tweak was ignored since a 275 engine gives just above the same speed as other Mechs had with Speed Tweak before the May 16 patch. Almost full Torso Pitch and a small buff to Torso Speed that can be removed if using the Alternate Operations tree listed below.

Operations 14
Roughly half of the Heat Containment and Cool Run Nodes were aimed for that should further improve Heat. The choice to go down the right side of the Operations tree is to maximize Gyros plus it costs one less Node though you can use an Alternate Operations tree maximizing Hill Climbing and getting 1 more Cool Run.

Sensor 11
Full Information gathering to put those lasers where they need to go and just above half the Radar Deprivation and Sensor Range benefits.

Miscellaneous 7
Since this is a laser boat, improving the Consumable cooling seems wise allowing 2 plus 1 of either UAV or Strike fo choice, if choosing Strikes replace the UAV Duration Node with the Advanced Salvos as the second Node chosen.

[Wattila]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

So i did a test on night gyr on 2 maps (vitric forge, frozen city) with 2 erppc no extra heatsink (10 extr,2 internal from engine locked) standing still.

0 heat cont node : game gimme 52% heat both map. theory 100*28 heat /53 heat cap = 52.83 %

5 heat cont node : game gimme 48% heat both map.
Theory 100*28/60.95 = 45.94% (heat cont affect both 30 base cap and addiaontal heatsink.
Theory 100*28/57.5 = 48.70% (heat cont only affect 30 base cap which mean + 0.9 heat cap per node)

So it seems PGI was wrong about there own mechanic if they ever stated that. (cant be arsed to test it further in detail though this as far i go)

Thanks for taking the time to test this. So, the previous EBJ with 2LPL 6ERML with 24DHS example assuming heat containment works just on the 30 point (someone said it's actually 28, but I don't know anything anymore) base heat cap like it used to.

12/14 heat gen nodes, 26 total in firepower (-9% heat gen): 45.96% heat gen, 9.45s time to cap.
Full ops (20 nodes): 46.39% heat efficiency, 9.98s time to cap.

Yeah, have to skill operations just for the cool runs, as the filler nodes in the firepower tree are much better. Gonna go respec some mechs and test.

GHR-5P, 10+6DHS, 5LPL (hot as balls)
Alpha 5LPL with -7.5% heat gen = ~85%
Alpha 5LPL with +15% heat capacity, -1.5% heat gen = ~85%
Alpha 5LPL with -9% heat gen = ~84% <-- It's actually cooler

Also, on the same 5LPL build, 5 cool run nodes are worth about the same as 14 heat gen for cooling purposes (35.64%, 35.80% respectively). Cool run is still good if you have no reason to invest in weapons. And for hot builds, take both.

Edited by Wattila, 23 May 2017 - 12:18 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Wildstreak, on 22 May 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

So we can have more than 1 entry?

See the index. Yours has been added under your original entry.

[Aramuside]

Wattila, on 17 May 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

This is a meant to be a generic laser vomit skill build that should work for both IS and clans.

EDIT 05-23-2017. Updated the build as heat containment still appears to work on the base (not total) heat cap only, making the nodes much less attractive.

Firepower (43 nodes): Get all the range, duration, and heat gen.

Mobility (17 nodes): As much torso speed as possible, plus 3/5 speed tweak.

Operations (17 nodes): Make a beeline for cool run nodes, everything else is filler, would grab an extra heat containment if I had a spare point, but I don't.

Sensors (13 nodes): So, been playing without seismic for a while and starting to miss it. 12 nodes to get 200m seismic and 1 leftover point into radar derp to inform you when you've been targeted.

Auxiliary (1 node): Consumable slot. Double strikes and coolshot are excellent value for the nodes if you can spare the credits. I feel they're overkill for casual play, though, so only one point spent here.

https://kitlaan.gitlab.io/mwoskill/?p=0bdce643-3f71-11e7-ae4c-8f36b817b656&s=Mech%20Operations

Your Kitlaan link is a different build than your picture.

[Wattila]

Aramuside, on 22 May 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

Your Kitlaan link is a different build than your picture.

Should work now, thanks.

[Wattila]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

So i did a test on night gyr on 2 maps (vitric forge, frozen city) with 2 erppc no extra heatsink (10 extr,2 internal from engine locked) standing still.

0 heat cont node : game gimme 52% heat both map. theory 100*28 heat /53 heat cap = 52.83 %

5 heat cont node : game gimme 48% heat both map.
Theory 100*28/60.95 = 45.94% (heat cont affect both 30 base cap and addiaontal heatsink.
Theory 100*28/57.5 = 48.70% (heat cont only affect 30 base cap which mean + 0.9 heat cap per node)

So it seems PGI was wrong about there own mechanic if they ever stated that. (cant be arsed to test it further in detail though this as far i go)

I'm confused, I did the math in another thread and the results are in the right ballpark, pasting it here also. Maybe the testing methods are just too inaccurate.

"Many people have complained heat containment is broken. I also did a rough test using two duplicate 5LPL grasshoppers, one with max heat containment and some heat gen (+15% and -1.5%) and one with max heat gen (-10.5%). I know it's not very scientific, but bear with me. The mech in question has 6 external DHS and 10 truedubs, which would give it 59 points of heat capacity, I believe (if it's 1.5 per external DHS). 59*1.15 results in 67.85 heat cap if the skill works correctly. The test was conducted on forest colony, which should be heat neutral (0% resting heat).

Alpha strike resulted in heat containment build reaching 85% heat and heat gen build 84%. The full alpha with full heat gen setup should indeed result in around 84% ((56*0.895 / 59 = ~0.849). However, the result for heat containment setup should be around 81% ((56*0.985) / 67.85 = ~0.813). If the heat containment only worked on the base 30 (?) heat cap, we should end up at (56*0.985) / 63.5 = ~0.869, which is dangerously close to the 85% mark considering my eyeball readings can probably be off by around 2% due to heat dissipation and human error. I'm confused now, but maybe the methodology is just too inaccurate or my math skills are crap. However, it's not impossible that the PGI dev is simply wrong (he or someone else could've made a commit, overwriting the code, or something), and heat containment still works on base heat capacity like it did before the skill tree patch."

Edited by Wattila, 23 May 2017 - 02:34 AM.

[Palfatreos]

The 3lpl,forest,6ext,10int heatsink,standing still calculation theories (aint gonna do ghost heat)

Net heat capacity = base * (1+heat cont%) + heatsink cap (= effective heat capacity since forest neutral and standing still)
30 * (1+15%) + 20 + 9 = 63.5

Net heat weapon = heat (1-heat gen%)
21 * (1 - 1.5%) = 20.685

heat% = net heat weapon/effective heat cap (for (+15% and -1.5%))
20.685/63.5*100 = 32.57%

Net heat capacity = base * (1+heat cont%) + heatsink cap (= effective heat capacity since forest neutral and standing still)
30 + 20 + 9 = 59

Net heat weapon = heat (1-heat gen%)
21 * (1 - 10.5%) = 18.795

heat% = net heat weapon/effective heat cap (for (-10.5%))
18.795/59*100 = 31.86%

if heat cont had effect on heatsink
Net heat capacity = base * (1+heat cont%) + heatsink cap (= effective heat capacity since forest neutral and standing still)
30 + 20 + 9 = 59 * (1+15%) = 67.85

Net heat weapon = heat (1-heat gen%)
21 * (1 - 1.5%) = 20.685

heat% = net heat weapon/effective heat cap (for (+15% and -1.5%))
20.685/67.85*100 = 30.49%

Note: i also only tested with ppc to eliminate burn time.Laser has burn time which give a delay on your total heat, heat dissipation probably start as soon there heat while the true heat% isnt shown instantly this can cause you % ingame to show lower then in theory.

Ill try the 5p grashopper 3 lpl on forest later either way i am confused that you get 30% on both

Edit:
test value on grashopper 5p
3 lpl(+15% and -1.5%) : 29% (32.57% 30 base theory, 30.49% all heatsink theory)
2 erppc (+15% and -1.5%) : 41% (41.88% 30 base theory, 39.19% all heatsink theory)
2 erppc (-10,5%) : 40% (40.95% theory)
3 lpl (-10,5%) : 28% (31.86% theory)

Using burn time laser or any heat weapon over time instead of instant heat will get part of heat dissipated befor it hit total heat. If you probably calculate the - heat of the heat lost during the burn time i bet the the % correct.

Edit2:
lpl burn time = 0.67s
heat lost after the whole burn = effective dissipation rate * burn time
= (2+0.9)*0.67 = 1.943 heat

Net heat weapon = 20.685 => heat after burn - cooling during burn = 20.685 - 1.943 = 18.742
heat% = 20.685/63.5*100 = 30.49% => heat%- cooling during burn = 18.74/63.5*100 = 29.51% (for (+15% and -1.5%)).

So yeah i am stil behind that it only base heat cap effect on heat containment and not heatsink using weapon with heat over time same result just a convoluted to test it.

Edited by Palfatreos, 23 May 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[Wattila]

And yes, should definitely test with PPCs. Should try to near max your heat capacity though, because the margin of error is really large if you only generate a little heat, which is something I noticed. I'd consider the alpha strike results more accurate, removed the confusing 3xLPL case, just leaving the 5xLPL alpha strike that should be more accurate. Also, ghost heat shouldn't be a factor, the system doesn't appear to care how the heat is generated. The heat gen nodes work for the entire 56 points of head for 5xLPL alpha.

Edited by Wattila, 23 May 2017 - 02:56 AM.

[Palfatreos]

i understand the margin of error there just 2 reason why i dont do it.
1) i cant be arsed to calculate ghost heat
2) this mean i have to test the ghost heat formula is correct.

also i dont dont mind thoery testing or crafting stuff however data mining thing is just to much for me so my test pool is very narrow to support the theory but ugh people has limits this mine .

Edited by Palfatreos, 23 May 2017 - 03:00 AM.

[Wattila]

Palfatreos, on 23 May 2017 - 02:58 AM, said:

i understand the margin of error there just 2 reason why i dont do it.
1) i cant be arsed to calculate ghost heat
2) this mean i have to test the ghost heat formula is correct.

also i dont dont mind thoery testing or crafting stuff however data mining thing is just to much for me so my test pool is very narrow to support the theory but ugh people has limits this mine .

I use the smurfy heat tables. I'm not sure they're still accurate, though:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

[Palfatreos]

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5755738
on edit2: added - cooling during burn seems to give the % as you should if you test with lpl it just les practicle to test this way.

The 3 erppc ,forest,6ext,10int heatsink,standing still calculation theorie

Net heat capacity = base * (1+heat cont%) + heatsink cap (= effective heat capacity since forest neutral and standing still)
30 * (1+15%) + 20 + 9 = 63.5

Net heat weapon = heat (1-heat gen%)
57.51 * (1 - 1.5%) = 56.65

heat% = net heat weapon/effective heat cap (for (+15% and -1.5%))
56.65/63.5*100 = 89.21 %

this should be % for 3 eppc but like i said i hate testing stuff out and i am at the end of my rope with this clicking simulator skill tree. feel free to test it.

[Bud Crue]

Bumped to remind entrants that they need to start campaigning for likes and commentary. With a couple standouts being the exceptions, it looks like a lot of you only have 3-4 likes and few if any comments. I only budgeted for 10 mech packs so if it comes to a bunch of ties, I will let my kids pick the winners...and the last time they did so based on who had the coolest sounding names. Just FYI.

Contest is still on and new entrants welcome, but still...start getting some likes if you want to win.

[cazidin]

Bud Crue, on 23 May 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

Bumped to remind entrants that they need to start campaigning for likes and commentary. With a couple standouts being the exceptions, it looks like a lot of you only have 3-4 likes and few if any comments. I only budgeted for 10 mech packs so if it comes to a bunch of ties, I will let my kids pick the winners...and the last time they did so based on who had the coolest sounding names. Just FYI.

Contest is still on and new entrants welcome, but still...start getting some likes if you want to win.

Fortunately, I have the coolest name.

I've been trying to spread word but mostly I've gotten the reaction of "I already know this game because I'm the absolute master of everything". A few people have been receptive and thanked me but don't comment - in THIS thread or any other. What would you recommend to participants? Does my separate thread count or just the likes/comments here?

Lastly. When does the contest end?

Edited by cazidin, 23 May 2017 - 02:50 PM.