342 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Aramuside, on 21 May 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

Wattila's Mauler special seems to link to your OP post Bud.

------- Mauler Special
[color=#0f72da]https://mwomercs.com...post__p__575142[/color]

fixed

[G4LV4TR0N]

Bud Crue, on 21 May 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

I think for some of my lights and weaker mediums I will do more on the Misc tree to take advantage of multiple consumables. I don't run any slow mechs so that conflict of "survival vs mobility" is going to be the area where I think I will have the most variability. Right now, due to lack of play most likely, I still am fixating on the mobility and operations branches as being more important than they probably justify numbers-wise, due to the whole "those are my basic and elite bonuses" from the old system.
Once I let go of that fixation, I suspect I will use survival a bit more and emphasize firepower even more.

I have updated my post to make my Survival tree choices more detailed. If you're using light mech you should probably check it out, because it addresses one common issue that Skill Tree is capable of fixing.

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 21 May 2017 - 08:42 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Contest entrants,

Ya need to tell your unit mates and anyone else to come take a look at your entry. Need to get comments and likes for your entries in order to win. Get to it. If a bunch of you have the same amount of comment/likes I will let my kids decide the winners.

Edit: for those of you who have participated: Well done. I think this has been valuable.
Edit2: The contest is still on so more entries are welcome!...I just want folks to start getting comments/likes so that picking winners is easier.

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 May 2017 - 05:01 PM.

[cazidin]

Bud Crue, on 21 May 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Contest entrants,

Ya need to tell your unit mates and anyone else to come take a look at your entry. Need to get comments and likes for your entries in order to win. Get to it. If a bunch of you have the same amount of comment/likes I will let my kids decide the winners.

Edit: for those of you who have participated: Well done. I think this has been valuable.
Edit2: The contest is still on so more entries are welcome!...I just want folks to start getting comments/likes so that picking winners is easier.

Bud. I figured out a very clever solution to my big wall of text in the detailed guide.

Spoiler tags.

Why didn't any of us think of that before? Anyway, it's OK with you if I spread word of my thread in quick play too?

Also my likes/comments are technically spread in this thread and that one. Is that OK?

Edited by cazidin, 21 May 2017 - 05:06 PM.

[Nightmare1]

I just want to say, thanks for organizing this Bud!

[Wattila]

Aye, this has been very educational.

Been tinkering a bit more, here's the GHR-5P build I'm using as of 05-25-2017. I stopped skilling Sensors since the value just isn't there, rather have the left side of the ops tree since that helps you all the time.

Firepower (33 nodes): This is currently my favorite version of the tree. Gets all the range and duration nodes, but skips the heat gen nodes that are gated by cooldown. If you want more heat dissipation, operations gives a better return from this point on.

Survival (28 nodes): Get all structure nodes and nearby armor nodes. I believe it's worth getting some armor for structure quirked mechs, since it's 7 points for 6 armor nodes after getting all the structure - just can't beat the value.

Mobility (16 nodes): Not the shortest left side path, but gets more useful nodes like torso speed. The Grasshopper is agile and fits a large XL, so I don't think it's worth investing more.

Operations (13 nodes): This is the shortest path to 4 cool run nodes. The last point would cost 4 nodes, so it was skipped.

Auxiliary (1 nodes): Getting just the extra consumable slot is fine for casual play. Feel free to skim some points from mobility and firepower if you want the strikes or cool shots.

https://kitlaan.gitl...ch%20Operations

Edited by Wattila, 25 May 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[Palfatreos]

General skill tree for high burst dps or/and poking builds

Table on content

1) Laser boating
1.1) Laser boating: Weapon, agility tree focus.
1.2) Laser boating: Weapon, operation, sensor focus.
2) Ballistic boating
2.1) Ballistic boating : Weapon, agility focus.
2.2) Ballistic boating : Weapon, operation, sensor focus.
3) SRM boating
3.1) SRM boating : Weapon, agility focus.
3.2) SRM boating : Weapon, operation, sensor focus.
4) Streak boating
4.1) Streak boating : Weapon, agility focus.
4.2) Streak boating : Weapon, operation, sensor focus.

1) Laser boating

Left out laser duration nodes it highly recommended on laser build with 1 second or longer laser duration.

1.1) Laser boating: Weapon, agility tree focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...988b4&s=Agility

Used SP : 80
Free SP : 11
Laser duration highly recomended for long laser burn time weapon.

1.2) Laser boating: Weapon, operation, sensor focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...ch%20Operations

Used SP : 72
Free SP : 19
Laser duration highly recomended for long laser burn time weapon.

2) Ballistic boating

You might wanna drop some range/heat gen nodes if you need more free SP

2.1) Ballistic boating : Weapon, agility focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...9be16&s=Weapons

Used SP : 85
Free SP : 6

2.2) Ballistic boating : Weapon, operation, sensor focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...9be16&s=Weapons

Used SP : 77
Free SP : 14

3) SRM boating
You might wanna drop some range/heat gen nodes if you need more free SP

3.1) SRM boating : Weapon, agility focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...9c64c&s=Weapons

Used SP : 88
Free SP : 3

3.2) SRM boating : Weapon, operation, sensor focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...6aff0&s=Weapons

Used SP : 80
Free SP : 11

4) Streak boating

You might wanna drop some heat gen nodes if you need more free SP

4.1) Streak boating : Weapon, agility focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...7ff88&s=Weapons

Used SP : 80
Free SP : 11

4.2) Streak boating : Weapon, operation, sensor focus.

Spoiler

https://kitlaan.gitl...16946&s=Weapons

Used SP : 72
Free SP : 19

http://imgur.com/a/Q3eUW (image bundle)

Edited by Palfatreos, 22 May 2017 - 04:14 AM.

[Palfatreos]

Wattila, on 20 May 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

Spoiler

I can't quite understand what PGI was thinking when designing the tree, though. It's an overly complicated mess for the newbie, and easy for an experienced player to min-max (once people figure out how).


Firepower tree is a huge point sink with low value nodes, I know I still invest too much in it. The laser duration nodes are probably the only ones you'd be crazy not to go for as they help your trades a lot. Honestly, if you're pure dakka the entire tree is probably just nope.

Another tree with hard stats, Survival, is bad for most unquirked mechs, except if you play comp and max it (along with mobility) to keep weapons on your mech a bit longer.

Left side of mobility is super good, with free tonnage waiting at the end thanks to engine desync. Especially important considering how scandalously bad assaults are at twisting now. Should probably just put all the points I invest in firepower here instead.

Jump jets, lol.

Operations. Everyone is just going to max this, probably? And it's not even a bad idea 90% of the time despite all the crappy filler. One tree PGI got right?

Sensors I consider a newbie trap, yet people swear by it, maybe I'm just an idiot, I dunno. 200m seismic for 12 points is good, I think, but nothing else in that tree I'd get excited about (TIG is kinda ok, but meh). 19 points for full radar derp and seismic is a huge opportunity cost considering how situational everything in the tree is. Ironically, the tree is more valuable to lurmboats resulting in an interesting balance situation where every lurmboat has target decay yet no target has radar derp.

I totaly agree, I love the skill tree but i rather had them do a linear one BUT with different SP cost per node. For example 1 seismic sensor = 6 sp instead of clicking 5 death nodes to get your 1 seismic sensor. This way you still have to decide what you prefer to get and what to sacrefice with less clicking and less chaotic for people who arent good in mech building.
Sadly like politics voting system with there pro and cons it probably a to big ship to turn anymore.

I do hope they have *save skill tree template* high on there priority list and release it on next patch or so because this the biggest deal breaker to keep playing the game anymore. Once i have finnaly settledown my general tree for general builds all left for me going trough clickerwarrior to implement in my mechs.
I rather play my 20 most used mech and leave the rest of my 80+ mech unskilled but even that get boring after awhile.

I mostly got the same view as you when valuating the skill tree priority especially on sensor tree the biggest value is a fully upgraded seismic not rader derp it just high SP comitment . I do put radar derp on the post because i bet the general people have way much harder time dealing with lurms withouth it.

The biggest thing i yet have to get a conclusion/ratio right is the firepower/mech op especially heat gen vs coolrun and heat cont. A full heat gen or full cool run/heat cont has very close cooling eff and heat capacity value but one cost more sp but has more useful node in it way while the other cost less sp but has more junk nodes in the way.
As for in am using rule of thumb that if i can unlock 3 heat gen nodes for 1 heat cont and 1 coolrun + 1 junk node. Becuase i trade slighty better cooling eff over slighty less effective heat capacity which what i prefer. This is ofcourse if the nodes before heatgen was unlocked different reason and not solely purpose to get heatgen.

As i mainly run high alphas laser build (2lpl,6 med ebj) i do find the 2 x coolshot 18 (actually 27 with +50% bonus) very usefull for me as being able to cooldown 27 heat in instant and drill another high alpha faster then waiting to coodlown

Edited by Palfatreos, 22 May 2017 - 05:38 AM.

[Ebins]

Nice job Galvatron. I love your whole thinking behind the setup of that kit fox. Your reasoning was very well explained, and if I had that variant of kit fox, I'd surely try it. Well done!

[Wattila]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

The biggest thing i yet have to get a conclusion/ratio right is the firepower/mech op especially heat gen vs coolrun and heat cont. A full heat gen or full cool run/heat cont has very close cooling eff and heat capacity value but one cost more sp but has more useful node in it way while the other cost less sp but has more junk nodes in the way.

Try this calculator made by Gyrok: https://mwomercs.com...runheat-quirks/

But yes, any energy based mech will want at least 15 points in operations for the heat containment nodes - makes it much less likely to accidentally shutdown or cook your mech (if you're pro and play with override on ). After that it's worth getting all the heat gen you can afford from firepower. I wouldn't get the ones 1:1 gated by cooldown nodes, though, unless you have nothing better to use your points on.

[Palfatreos]

Wattila, on 22 May 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Try this calculator made by Gyrok: https://mwomercs.com...runheat-quirks/

But yes, any energy based mech will want at least 15 points in operations for the heat containment nodes - makes it much less likely to accidentally shutdown or cook your mech (if you're pro and play with override on ). After that it's worth getting all the heat gen you can afford from firepower. I wouldn't get the ones 1:1 gated by cooldown nodes, though, unless you have nothing better to use your points on.

i agree cooldown nodes low priority on hot laser boats. However i disagree on the heat containment part.

Effective Heat capacity = Total heat cap * (1 + Heat cont%) * (1 + heat gen%)

Where 1 heat cont worth 3 heat gen (if you only compare them on effective heat cap) if you only focus on one of them. (sombody pointed out to me that total heat cap only the mech base heatcap 30 and not including heatsink but it doesnt affect the ratio).

Now if you have 0 weapon investment i agree heat cont is more sp efficient to get effective heat cap. However if you have weapon nodes for some other reason and you have 3 heat gen you can unlock withouth any obstruction of other weapon node it actually worth to drop that 1 heat contaiment + 2 junk nodes because i give you the same effective heat cap + better cooling efficieny.

I got a basic understanding how each node work and the ranking in there own tree i still am puzzled how efficient/worth each node is with there less desirable node you have to unlock to get it against other trees.

It why my first post with specific 91 nodes used and the general one so different because i havent set on which tree to give the highest priority yet

Edited by Palfatreos, 22 May 2017 - 06:18 AM.

[Wattila]

EDIT: DISREGARD. THIS IS ALL WRONG DUE TO HEAT CONTAINMENT STILL WORKING ON BASE HEAT CAP AS OF 5-23-2017 REGARDLESS OF WHAT A PGI EMPLOYEE MAY HAVE SAID.

Both cool run and heat containment have been confirmed by PGI to work off the total heat capacity (ie. after heat sinks have been added). Let's do some math and take your 2LPL 6ERML EBJ with full possible 24 DHS as an example using Gyrok's spreadsheet found here: https://docs.google....t#gid=941390730

Comparing even the most efficient pathing of 26 nodes to get as many heat gen nodes as possible to full 20 node operations tree, which I think is inefficient, the results are as follows.

• Firepower (26 nodes, -9% heat gen): 33.65% heat efficiency, 7.15s time to cap.
  
• Operations (20 nodes, +15% heat cap, +10% heat dissipation): 33.96% heat efficiency, 8.24s time to cap.
  
• Operations (15 nodes, +15% heat cap, +6% heat dissipation): 32.73% heat efficiency, 8.16s time to cap.
  
• Firepower + Ops (29 nodes, -5.25% heat gen, +15% heat cap, +6% heat dissipation): 34.44% heat efficiency, 8.27s time to cap.

Time to cap is the difference, but it's smaller than expected. Turns out a mix of operations and firepower produce the best result, although the difference isn't that great.

EDIT: I also made a comparison using, say, a MAL-MX90 with 10 engine DHS firing 5xAC5

• Firepower (26 nodes, -9% heat gen): 48.44% heat efficiency, 16.49s time to cap.
  
• Operations (20 nodes, +15% heat cap, +10% heat dissipation): 48.89% heat efficiency, 19.02s time to cap.
  
• Operations (15 nodes, +15% heat cap, +6% heat dissipation): 48.11% heat efficiency, 18.80s time to cap.
  
• Firepower + Ops (29 nodes, -5.25% heat gen, +15% heat cap, +6% heat dissipation): 49.58% heat efficiency, 19.11s time to cap.

The heat dissipation figures are close enough to be non-issue. The real difference is the time to cap, which is what really matters in most cases. Turns out adding heat gen nodes works very well over the time, but contributes surprisingly little to how long you can keep firing continuously. One reason I haven't really been prioritizing heat gen nodes in most builds lately.

Edited by Wattila, 22 May 2017 - 08:51 PM.

[Scyther]

Technically, Cool Run and Heat Containment have been stated by a PGI dev to work off total heat capacity, and the heat capacity was stated to be base 30 + 1.5 per DHS (https://mwomercs.com...-1490-13dec2016) but various people who've done some testing (myself included) feel that these numbers don't quite match observed heat/shutdown performance in some mechs.

PGI statements could well be true and accurate and my/others testing is incorrect, but I feel the issue still needs more research.

[Nightmare1]

MadBadger, on 22 May 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

Technically, Cool Run and Heat Containment have been stated by a PGI dev to work off total heat capacity, and the heat capacity was stated to be base 30 + 1.5 per DHS (https://mwomercs.com...-1490-13dec2016) but various people who've done some testing (myself included) feel that these numbers don't quite match observed heat/shutdown performance in some mechs.

PGI statements could well be true and accurate and my/others testing is incorrect, but I feel the issue still needs more research.

Don't forget that DHS you place into the engine slots count as 2.0 instead of 1.5.

[Palfatreos]

Nightmare1, on 22 May 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:

Don't forget that DHS you place into the engine slots count as 2.0 instead of 1.5.

nope it doesnt internal heatsink (2.0) come from the engine itself not the ones you place inside it they just extra slots they still count as 1.5 external heatsink

It general misconception people have, thinking external heat sink means dhs not stored inside the engine. while external are actually any heatsink the player add on be it in or outside the engine slot. It also why 250 engine is the minimum engine for any heat based mech to get the 10 max internals dhs.

it pretty easy to test it grab an assault with highest xl 400 a high heat weapon and put heat sinks only in the engine and then move them outside the engine. You will see no difference in heat management in the mechlab or test it in the testground.

Edited by Palfatreos, 22 May 2017 - 07:08 AM.

[Palfatreos]

Wattila, on 22 May 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Spoiler

Both cool run and heat containment have been confirmed by PGI to work off the total heat capacity (ie. after heat sinks have been added). Let's do some math and take your 2LPL 6ERML EBJ with full possible 24 DHS as an example using Gyrok's spreadsheet found here: https://docs.google....t#gid=941390730

Comparing even the most efficient pathing of 26 nodes to get as many heat gen nodes as possible to full 20 node operations tree, which I think is inefficient, the results are as follows.

Firepower (26 nodes, -9% heat gen): 43.05% heat efficiency, 9.79s time to cap.

Operations (20 nodes, +15% heat cap, +10% heat dissipation): 43.45% heat efficiency, 11.28s time to cap.

Heat efficiency is comparable, but the time to cap difference means that by investing in operations you can fire an extra half of an alpha (additional 1.49s of continuous firing). You can also drop 5 points from operations resulting in 41.87% eff and 11.16s to cap, skewing the value per node more in the way of the ops tree.

Interestingly enough, spending 29 nodes with 15 in ops, and 14 in weapons (29 nodes, +15% heat cap, +6% heat dissipation, -5.25% heat gen) results in 44.07% heat efficiency and 11.33s time to cap. This also proves how bad heat gen nodes are at increasing your effective heat cap.

It's 3 more nodes than the optimal 100% firepower path, and you lose 4% range and -2.25% cooldown in exchange for the filler nodes in the operations tree. Still, my point stands, if you care about heat buildup (and for a laser vomit mech that should your main concern), get 15 points from ops before investing in anything else.

Fair enough like i said i am still not out the woods when being the most efficient SP path.

Edited by Palfatreos, 22 May 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[Wattila]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

Fair enough like i said i am still not out the woods when being the most efficient SP path.

if you using https://docs.google....t#gid=941390730
change the formula of the f5 cell from



=E5*(1+(0.03*F2))
to

= E4*(1+(0.03*F2))+E5

that if statement heat cap only works on base mech heat cap (30) and not affected by heatsinks.

Wat? Are we looking at the same spreadsheet? I can't see the error, and the heat cap seems to resolve correctly. Goes from 50 to 57.5 with +15% cap when you have an engine with 10truedubs as it should. I was using wrong HPS numbers and had to redo the math, btw, not much change overall, though.

Edited by Wattila, 22 May 2017 - 07:46 AM.

[Palfatreos]

Wattila, on 22 May 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Both cool run and heat containment have been confirmed by PGI to work off the total heat capacity (ie. after heat sinks have been added). Let's do some math and take your 2LPL 6ERML EBJ with full possible 24 DHS as an example using Gyrok's spreadsheet found here: https://docs.google....t#gid=941390730

srr i think i misunderstood do you mean work off heatsink that, cool run heat containment heatsink has an affect on heat cappacity of heatsink or not? becuase if they do have affect you ignore previous post. english not the best ;P

[Wattila]

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

srr i think i misunderstood do you mean work off heatsink that, cool run heat containment heatsink has an affect on heat cappacity of heatsink or not? becuase if they do have affect you ignore previous post. english not the best ;P

Yes, they (should) work after heat sink effects are calculated according to PGI.

[Palfatreos]

actually isnt it easy to test now with night gyr? just upgrade only heat containment since his cooling ratio not affected by envirement unlike anyy other mech.

Edited by Palfatreos, 22 May 2017 - 09:11 AM.