655 replies to this topic

[Dlardrageth]

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 December 2011 - 07:28 AM, said:

As long, massive customization (F-class refits) takes millions and millions of C-bills and a fair bit of time, it is alright for me. As an EVE player myself, 1 week is considered short and 2 weeks is just fair.

So you can guess what sort of duration I am expecting ;f

Yeah, but also factor in that in EVE-O you couldn't just swap out the "engine" of your Drake BC and make it going at Rifter speeds all of sudden (You could go for a Hurricane tho...). And full customization is just aiming for that. You'd also have to use implants, boosters and eventually a ganged-up CS to buff your speed/agility and still won't quite get there.

Or to make it more "plastic" with an example, you really expect PGI to implement features which enable you to turn a Ford Pinto into a Porsche? If it were that easy, why bother producing any Porsche in the first place?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Dlardrageth..psst..pick something actually hard to customize for an example..cars..not a good choice..*looks at the Batmobile's built over the decades, the clubs full of Ghost Buster Ambulances, KITTs, and the Deloran from Back to the Future*...we did stuff to cars in high school that makes putting a 400XL into a Jenner seem pretty mild, and Pinto to Porsche isn't actually hard to do at all it's actually a good analogy for the most part though, Mechs can be customized just like cars can, it takes someone who knows what they are doing, someone with the tools, a lot of time and a lot of money. We've covered all of that in this thread. We've even got the times required by TT listed here somewhere

Me..in a full MMOSim, where I've got something to DO while waiting on repairs/refits/customizations, I'm fine with waiting the required times, many others feel the same. Problem is..we won't have that, we'll have MWO..drop into combat or..nothing, that's it. So..you drop into combat the first day, first fight you are in you lose your left arm off, lose a leg and most of your armor, about 20 mins of combat. Tomorrow you can log back in and get your Mech out of the repair shop, we do hope you enjoyed playing MWO! How many people would be back tomorrow? I wouldn't..and I'm a fan of the franchise for over 25 years now, cause I'd log in, get in my repaired Mech, get ONE combat and be back to waiting till tomorrow to play again. Bad juju, and it would mark the last BTech computer game made for another decade..at least.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Alternatively repairs are instant, customisations aren't and we have multiple mechs. No down time, just a temporary loss of one mech. Those who are good at the game and put in the time will be able to afford more/better mechs a lot sooner. The rest of us will just have to drag along. As long as the game is fun and most people can get somewhere, what's the problem?

[MonkeyDCecil]

Mechlab should be a place for repairs and housing of mechs. I think being able to mod your mech a little is also neccesary and cool. But I fear frankenmech.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I think you mean ubermech, which we will just have to live with. They shouldn't be such a problem if heat is correctly implemented. A frankenmech is one cobbled together fron bits of other mechs.

[Deamented]

After reading several pages of this, I've notice 1 thing that worries me.

I don't like to spend much money on games, which is why I'm excited by a good Mechwarrior F2P game. I know some people have deep wallets and unlimited money to blow on a game like this. I hate when a person with lots of money can beat me because they have lots of money. It turns me away from games. Spending money to own more mechs? Awesome. You can only take 1 in with you. Spending real money for cooler looking mechs? Sure, Looks aren't skill.

When a top players has mech X with loadout X that is amazing, and new player Bob can spend 30 buck of real money to get enough C-bills to build the same mech, I have an issue. I'm now out classed not by skill, but by money. Can I win? Yes, but it is far harder.

The balance of the game with how I build my mech, vs what it cost and how I earn that cost will do a lot. The other issue is the 'Perfect" mech. People who are good at match can crunch numbers and cost for cost build a 'Perfect' Mech. Then post this online and suddenly everyone will have the perfect mech. Creating limits on what you can build prevents this. Then some mechs might be better than others, but a perfect mech cannot exist.

To survive as a game, they must build a BALANCED game. Name one game that isn't balanced that is thriving? Name games that strive for balance with every patch, and see how many more players they have. Mech labs without limits will create an unbalanced game. Limits exist in real life. Cars are made, you can't changed every feature of a car to be perfect for you. NAscar has rules to prevent this, MWO will have rules to prevent this. In Nascar your car doesn't have weapons. It is easier to balance the rules. The more complex the game, the harder it will be to balance.

TLDR: The Mechlab needs rules and limits to prevent an imbalanced game from forming. Balance is key to a good game.

[Dlardrageth]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 December 2011 - 08:03 AM, said:

Dlardrageth..psst..pick something actually hard to customize for an example..cars..not a good choice..*looks at the Batmobile's built over the decades, the clubs full of Ghost Buster Ambulances, KITTs, and the Deloran from Back to the Future*...we did stuff to cars in high school that makes putting a 400XL into a Jenner seem pretty mild, and Pinto to Porsche isn't actually hard to do at all it's actually a good analogy for the most part though, Mechs can be customized just like cars can, it takes someone who knows what they are doing, someone with the tools, a lot of time and a lot of money. We've covered all of that in this thread. We've even got the times required by TT listed here somewhere

Yep, and to stick with the background/TT analogy, how many pilots would you say "customize" their Locust into a Marauder? How many people in real life buy a Ford Pinto and customize it into something akin to a Porsche (in terms of performance, not looks only)? Mind me, not against people piloting Marauders/driving Porsches, but some sort of inherent logic that you actually might have to buy a new Mech instead of just modifiying the hell of the old chassis seems proper.

Quote

Me..in a full MMOSim, where I've got something to DO while waiting on repairs/refits/customizations, I'm fine with waiting the required times, many others feel the same. Problem is..we won't have that, we'll have MWO..drop into combat or..nothing, that's it. So..you drop into combat the first day, first fight you are in you lose your left arm off, lose a leg and most of your armor, about 20 mins of combat. Tomorrow you can log back in and get your Mech out of the repair shop, we do hope you enjoyed playing MWO! How many people would be back tomorrow? I wouldn't..and I'm a fan of the franchise for over 25 years now, cause I'd log in, get in my repaired Mech, get ONE combat and be back to waiting till tomorrow to play again. Bad juju, and it would mark the last BTech computer game made for another decade..at least.

Not debating repairs at all, I could care less if they are (near-)instantaneous, that's just the part where you might have to compromise some with the background to make the game work. Fully on board there with you about long wait time for repairs making not much sense. But full customization is another color of beef totally. Will people bitch and moan if they don't get the option to turn a given chassis into something totally different at their whim? Sure they will. Will they never play MWO because they cannot mount an UAC20 on a light chassis? Seriously doubt that, the handful who won't, probably would quit about a paint job on the Mech they don't like just as well.

The question is hardly if full customization is possible (by canon or technically) in game, it's more if it is desirable. Do we really need an "Easy Mode" function that lets you attune a given Mech every time to what you just deem the necessary "cookie-cutter" design? I don't think so, I'm of the firm opinion that you should be able to do limited tweaks at steep cost to a Mech, but otherwise have to cope and adapt with what you got. Or otherwise GTFO and get a different chassis better suited to the job at hand. At least for the "regular" battles, I don't want to see the game going EzMode.

That notwithstanding, some sort of "full customization" for a game mode like "Solaris arena" or something is different. Has probably its place there. And gives people the chance to pimp their ride as they see fit. Just don't want to see totally bastardized designs on a regular basis on the actual battlefield. Assuming we get different game modes, that shouldn't be too hard to achieve, without turning all of gameplay into a munchkin-fest. IMHO.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 25 December 2011 - 09:10 AM.

[EDMW CSN]

Deamented, on 25 December 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

TLDR: The Mechlab needs rules and limits to prevent an imbalanced game from forming. Balance is key to a good game.

Battle Value goes hand in hand with Balance. Too many Shinies and you will end up riding a mech that everyone wants to shoot you in or a mech that no one wants to pair with since they will be forced to downgrade.

A Shadow Cat B has a monstrous 2213 BV for a mech with 2 C-LRM 15 with Artemis IV, 2 Er medium lasers, 1 BAP and 1 ECM suite..... Clan tech makes mech BV explode for no reason.

That is just 100+ BV shy away from a NSR-9J Nightstar.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 25 December 2011 - 09:15 AM.

[Deamented]

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 December 2011 - 09:10 AM, said:

Battle Value goes hand in hand with Balance. Too many Shinies and you will end up riding a mech that everyone wants to shoot you in or a mech that no one wants to pair with since they will be forced to downgrade.

A Shadow Cat B has a monstrous 2213 BV for a mech with 2 C-LRM 15 with Artemis IV, 2 Er medium lasers, 1 BAP and 1 ECM suite..... Clan tech makes mech BV explode for no reason.

That is just 100+ BV shy away from a NSR-9J Nightstar.

But how do you balance BV when every player will want the highest BV they can because each one is only caring about their own score and screw the allies?

[EDMW CSN]

Deamented, on 25 December 2011 - 09:16 AM, said:

But how do you balance BV when every player will want the highest BV they can because each one is only caring about their own score and screw the allies?

A typical match = game preset with 10k BV max. But a soft limit.
If the last person who enters side A exceeds the BV or matches it, no one else can join side A anymore.

Smart teams will be saving their last biggest BV player for the last slot, but that kind of coordination is most probably faction or merc units.

Lone wolves just have to keep their fingers cross or be smart about it.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 25 December 2011 - 09:26 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Pay to win won't happen in MWO, at least that's what we've told by PGI, and until I see otherwise, I'll trust them on that. I know F2P games that do allow pay to win, but I also know some that don't, so..not a worry at present.

Dlardrageth, turning a Locust into a Marauder is impossible, you can't do that with customization. You could change out the engine on the Locust within limits as described in the manual, armor has a max possible by tonnage of the chassis, and each chassis has a total limit on it's tonnage and that can't be changed. You want a BIGGER Mech, you have to GET a bigger Mech, you can't make that 30 tonner into a 35 or 60 or 100 tonner. Even MW4, with it's so simplistic and non-BTech system doesn't allow that, and the MW2/3 Mechlabs won't even allow you to make configurations you CAN make in MW4, they are a lot more restrictive because they FORCE you to place heat sinks and ammo ON the Mech, not just include them as extra tonnage.

Battle Values..IF player skill actually matters, twitch skills especially for targeting/avoiding fire, then BV becomes useless. BV on a Panther vs an Atlas..that Atlas wins without firing a shot...unless the Atlas has a newb pilot who can't hit the ground if he trips while that Panther has an expert who never misses with the PPC at extreme range...BV has no meaning at all when player skills actually impact how the combat takes place instead of random dice rolls. TT, a Firemoth coming at my Atlas is just more salvage. MW2, I had quite a few Dire Wolves and Marauder IICs shot out from under my *** by Firemoths because the pilots were just THAT damn good.

Now, if player skills don't matter, then BV is fine, I actually won't care in that case, highly unlikely I'll play the game, PvP where skills don't matter just aren't something I waste time on, especially not in online video games. I'm sure they're be some who enjoy it, but enough to make MWO a success..that I don't see, and judging by how all the other F2P games handle PvP, neither does anyone else.

[EDMW CSN]

BV can being modified to take into account player KDR, assist ratios (whether by damage, narcing, scouting etc) or character skill. So it won't be set in stone.

So it might be totally totally possible to turn a BV 1,057 Firemoth to 2K+ if the pilot is simply that insanely good.

[Xhaleon]

You know, it would be very strange if seasoned players were forced to downgrade their machines, or pick an entirely crappier one, all because their recorded skill (as the game sees it) makes them worth so much they can't join games without upsetting the BV matchmaking.

CSN, BV's for balancing a tabletop game so both commanders start on an equal standing, where their skill is shown through the use of the forces available to them. In a competitive game where we play the pilots and not the puppeteers, the two sides are only supposed to be balanced by their equipment (and only if PGI decides we're supposed to be so disconnected from the "real world" warfare and campaigning). Having better skills at the game is supposed to be an advantage, not a hamstring.

[RazorH]

I remember from playing the table top version that as long as you had the frame of a stock mech you could scratchbuild from there for example a 55 ton Buschwhacker or a 65 ton Vulture take their prime variants you have a decent mech but if you strip those down to nothing but the internal structure and frame and rebuild from there as long as you don't exceed the maxium 55 ton or 65 ton limit you could use whatever weapons and gear add as much or as little armor you want just as long as you did not exceed the maxium tonnage required for the mech you are building that is my opinion thats how it was with the table top version and thats the way it should be for MWO,MWLL,MW4,or whatever game you are playing not to mention the spoils of war versions that you are allowed per the rules and regulations for spoils of war

Edited by RazorH, 26 December 2011 - 02:03 AM.

[Ravn]

I loved MW3 mech building and I'd love to see it again. I think half the fun of the game is making a mech that is unique to your style of gameplay.

[Dlardrageth]

Xhaleon, on 25 December 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

You know, it would be very strange if seasoned players were forced to downgrade their machines, or pick an entirely crappier one, all because their recorded skill (as the game sees it) makes them worth so much they can't join games without upsetting the BV matchmaking.

CSN, BV's for balancing a tabletop game so both commanders start on an equal standing, where their skill is shown through the use of the forces available to them. In a competitive game where we play the pilots and not the puppeteers, the two sides are only supposed to be balanced by their equipment (and only if PGI decides we're supposed to be so disconnected from the "real world" warfare and campaigning). Having better skills at the game is supposed to be an advantage, not a hamstring.

Well, it comes down to how that "pilot skill factor" will be weighed in matchmaking, won't it? To state this clearly in advance, I am in favour of factoring pilot skill in. But that is "factoring in", not making it the whole point. Let's face it, with modern computing power you have the option to let a truckload of variables influence the matchmaking without causing much delay. The more, the better, I say; and yes, that includes pilots kill/stats. To what degree/percentage though realted to the total matchmaking "value", well, that is the big balancing question.

Exaggerating a bit, I won't want to have to face an Atlas in my smaller Assassin every time just because ther Atlas pilot has LOL-stats. On the other hand, I'd also hate to be teamed up with the Muppet Show every other time just because they happen to drive Mechs with comparable BV. But sadly can't find their d**** on a sunny day at noon with a flashlight. I'd like something in between, thank you very much. Somewhat of a challenge if I happen to be that really good Mech pilot, but not being penalized to kingdom come for being a decent pilot.

In order to avoid these (prolly exaggerated) extremes, I'd like a multiplicity of factors to play a role in the matchmaking value you get assigned. Let me list a few I think could be important:

• The rating (BV, if you want) of the Mech I'm sitting in, a no-brainer really.
  
• My personal "pilot rating" in that specific Mech. It usually might take a match or five to get used to that new ride. Someone with 100+ good matches in it will be somewhat more accustomed to it.
  
• My overall "pilot rating" as a MechWarrior. If I cannot hit the broadside of a barn, I shouldn't be rated like an élite pilot in the same Mech. That would just cost PGI a bunch of frustrated, thus leaving, customers.
  
• A very minor modification if I happen to join the random battle as part of a crack lance which has a really impressive "unit record". Not in order to penalize good teamwork, but rather make it count.
  
• A modifier based on my performance on a specific map type. Experience shows some players have massively different stats on certain map/terrain types. Some may excel e.g. on a desert map but be actually subpar on an arctic one for some reason.

Now all these factors being influencing variables with vastly different percentages on the final value. For example, make the Mech by itself count for 65%. Make the"pilot in given Mech" count for 20%. Make general pilot "skill" count for another 5%. (Just throwing out numbers here, might end up with totally different ratios.) And yes, there's a lot of other factors that might come into play as well I just cannot come up with right now.

The end result should be a "rating", that allows for matches that are balanced ina way, that allow for decent random matches. Mind me, I am not, repeating it, not talking about a campaign/capture game mode. This kind of matchmaking should go for random, aka "free for all" matches that get randomly formed. In order to avoid matches where due to a bunch of crack pilots on the one team, and a bunch of newbs on the other the match will be over after 4 minutes, and everybody participating will be dissatisfied and likely bored.

Remember, with regards to the background/canon, you always have and had pilots of different skill levels. Yet, they all came to the battlefield at one point and contributed. And rarely would you send a crack unit to wipe the floor with a bunch of nOObs, because it wasn't worth it, you'd have some other use for your best units/pilots usually (discounting an infamous Death Commando raid attempt from one novel...). Thus for a random "casual" battle, a system that would offer some attraction for everybody, both the vets and the newbs, would be benficial, IMHO.

Now for the campaign/conquest mode where the game clans/units will play the major role, that of course shouldn't be the way. If you want to mess in that game mode with the "big guys"™, that's your call to make. No need to try to balance that one out too much as far as skill/capability is concerned.

TL;DR: A matchmaking for "random" battles where pilot skill is an influencing factor, would be beneficial for the game as a whole. Not for campaign game mode though. It won't do the game as a whole any good if newbs get ROFLstomped most of the time in those "random" matches. Present everybody, no matter gow good a pilot he is, with both somewhat of a challenge and an opportunity in the random match mode. If you want to swing your E-Peen around, you can always do that in campaign/strategic mode. And don't just let the Mech design fresh out of the "cooker" be the only determining factor for matchmaking for sure. That is just plain dumbing down the game badly.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 27 December 2011 - 11:58 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

There won't be random battles though, not at launch, not according to PGI. We have 1 combat we can drop for, planetary control..that's it. And most of the matchmaking requests are for the ranked combats, not the random drops you do for grins and giggles.

You toss in random matches where stats get tracked and I can up/down pad my stats anyway I want to get the best possible results, it isn't difficult, especially when you take into account that I can double box on a SINGLE PC with any game on the market right now..it's easy to run multiple instances of the same game on my own PC and it's not top of the line. I log in with my real account, log in with my smurf account and challenge myself to a 1v1..whatever way I want my stats to go, they'll go. People do it all the time in F2P and P2P games, have for years, it isn't new, it's wide spread and rampant and it's proven impossible to stop to date, just ask EA, 5+ years and BF2 is still dealing with it despite everything EA has tried to combat the problem.

Nothing against the game tracking stats, it lets me see where I need to work to improve myself. But if those stats are actually USED for something other then bragging rights..forget it, you've just placed a huge exploit into your own system and you'll never fix it without removing it. Even IF the stat tracking gives nothing but bragging rights, people will exploit it, but at least it won't have any effect on anything but their egos.

[Dlardrageth]

That would be assuming you will have actually any access to the whole of these stats, if any, Kristov. And to the balancing formula used by PGI. Personally I can live very well without knowing those details.

Speaking for myself here, I usually give a shiny wet f*** about (performance) stats by themselves in most games. I was actually pretty vocal in my gaming clan opposing them as a major factor in recruitment. Because in most cases all the stats in the world won't show how good an addition "for the team" a given applicant is.

Believe me, I'm well aware of stats padding and "smurfing" matters, heck, even in EVE-O some people went along that path, FWIW. The thing is, even if you succeed in "gaming" your stats somehow (without actually knowing them), that would with careful matchmaking put you in "easier"/"harder" battles for a couple of times. And then the victories you most likely scored (or the losses, depending on which way you went) would catch up to you and balance it out again. So you would start smurfing all over again for a few more "easy" wins? And have nothing to show for it despite a rather hollow claim that you just won five matches in a row? Big deal...

Admittedly, as long as we won't have the "random" game mode, it's not that much of an issue. If I play a match/campaign where a whole unit (preferably of people I know) drops on a planet, I'll hopefully be aware of who I am teamed up with, and what their playstyle/capabilities are. So stats won't matter much. And like I already stated, a stat-influenced matchmaking has no place in campaign/conquest gameplay IMO. But then we'll have to see what game modes PGI will grace us when with, I reckon. Having "only" planetary drops doesn't mean you won't have a mode where it influences the situation on the strategic level and one where it doesn't. After all, if you don't split it up somehow, how would PGI provide for both the "casual" single player and units of people who want to drop as a whole unit?

I still maintain though, that proper matchmaking at least for a "random" game mode will do small wonders to counter pure munchkinism on the "mech building front". I prefer gameplay where player skill somewhat matters and that necessitates somne influence of it on matchmaking IMO. If you don't do it, you might end up with matchmaking akin to what WoT does, which very often just plain blows. For randomly formed matches.

[wolf74]

Here a Small thought here. Let say We get just the stock mechs but the Each weapons has 2 Mod slots on them.
The Mod Slot lets you get a small boost to a weapon.

Energy Weapons Mod idea:

Recharge Time: lower the time it takes the weapon to recharge by 10%, but also [Random (Lower Damage or Range by 5%) or (Raises Heat 5%)]
Heat Reducer: lowers the heat the weapon makes by 10%, but also [Random (Lower Damage or Range by 5%) or (Raises Recharge 5%)]
Damage Booster: Raise damage by 10%, but also [Random (Lower Range by 5%) or (Raises Recharge or Heat 5%)]
Range Booster, (You get the idea by now)

This way you can do Minor Upgrade to a mech in a mechlab without need 5 to 20 type of Medium lasers.
The Side Effect aka the part of the upgrade that lowers part of the stats could be known before putting it in or Random, I just said Random so you would know there could be one of many side effect to get the boost you wanted in. I don’t think these would be a game breaker and give player a bit of control over how there mech handles.

You would have Energy, Missile, Ballistic, Plasma Weapon modes

Lasers = Energy
Ballistic = AC, M.G.
Plasma = PPC, Flamers
Missile = SRM, LRM (and much Later, MRM,Rockets, ATM, MML)

Gauss Rifle are a Hybrid System of Energy & Ballistic

You can also add this type of Upgrade system to the Sensor of a mech.

Again this is just a small thought I just had.

Edited by wolf74, 27 December 2011 - 04:37 PM.

[Volume]

wolf74, on 27 December 2011 - 04:35 PM, said:

Here a Small thought here. Let say We get just the stock mechs but the Each weapons has 2 Mod slots on them.
The Mod Slot lets you get a small boost to a weapon.

Energy Weapons Mod idea:

Recharge Time: lower the time it takes the weapon to recharge by 10%, but also [Random (Lower Damage or Range by 5%) or (Raises Heat 5%)]
Heat Reducer: lowers the heat the weapon makes by 10%, but also [Random (Lower Damage or Range by 5%) or (Raises Recharge 5%)]
Damage Booster: Raise damage by 10%, but also [Random (Lower Range by 5%) or (Raises Recharge or Heat 5%)]
Range Booster, (You get the idea by now)

This way you can do Minor Upgrade to a mech in a mechlab without need 5 to 20 type of Medium lasers.
The Side Effect aka the part of the upgrade that lowers part of the stats could be known before putting it in or Random, I just said Random so you would know there could be one of many side effect to get the boost you wanted in. I don’t think these would be a game breaker and give player a bit of control over how there mech handles.

You would have Energy, Missile, Ballistic, Plasma Weapon modes

Lasers = Energy
Ballistic = AC, M.G.
Plasma = PPC, Flamers
Missile = SRM, LRM (and much Later, MRM,Rockets, ATM, MML)

Gauss Rifle are a Hybrid System of Energy & Ballistic

You can also add this type of Upgrade system to the Sensor of a mech.

Again this is just a small thought I just had.

Interesting idea. Reminds me of TF2 items or any such "Tradeoff" system where "Stock works, but you can customize this to your playstyle."

And about people talking about hardpoint systems:

What happens when I buy a Hunchback - Not any Hunchback, but a HBK-4P?

It has 8 medium lasers and 23 heat sinks. It's canon, it's how the design works. Does it just not count anymore because the average Hunchback is supposed to have an AC-20? Or do we have different chassis with different hardpoints for each model? There are at least 12 different Hunchbacks alone, if you check http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hunchback

Perhaps not all Hunchbacks are created equal? Perhaps when I buy a "Hunchback" I need to specify that I am purchasing the HBK-4SP, which has missile hardpoints that can be modified and energy hardpoints, but no ballistic weapons. (For reference, it has two SRM 6 and 4 Med Laser).

Would they just not include stock variants? From the "Is it done?" video, I'm thinking they have several different Jenners, A through F, each one with different equipment...Basically like how MW:LL handles things.