655 replies to this topic

[fearfactory]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 28 March 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Many of the stock designs aren't particularly balanced, and they're certainly not optimised. The idea was to show your skill by winning despite the drawbaks. Not munchkinising your way out of them.

Finally, someone who gets it.

[Tannhauser Gate]

fearfactory, on 28 March 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Finally, someone who gets it.

Reading through the posts here it really appears that the guys who want scratch built open mechlab really don’t know what Battletech is. They see Mechwarrior, which has so far been just a sim based on BT but never fully grasping the universe, and think in terms of sand box experience where players can fully customize everything.

The ones who understand what BTU is want to experience BT as a rich sim and not just a sandbox game with uber mechs. MWO is not a game where the universe is just a backdrop for players to go nuts and create whatever franken crap they want. BT’s mechs are powerful but not always optimized for the exact situ so you have to use skill, grit, and teamwork with your lance of brothers and sisters to win – not run to the mechlab and build an uber mech tailored for a specific map.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 28 March 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[fearfactory]

I like to think of it this way. If you play chess with the regular pieces and beat your opponent then great, showed off skill, something to even brag about if you did something interesting. However, if you play chess and decide "Oh, the Queen is the best, so I'm going to 'customize' my army by making the pawns, rooks, knights, and bishops work just like a queen" and your opponent does the same, it's not interesting, nothing to brag about. Ultimately, customization in BattleTech turns into this. Someone knows the best thing to use and abuses the heck out of it to the point that we lose potential players... ALL just to win. When in reality, you lost, because you can't even use the stock 'Mechs correctly.

[Tannhauser Gate]

@fearfactory

Well said.

[mockingfox]

I like mechwarrior because their are chassis and i get attached to a chassis and I pilot that chassis.
if we can all make our own chassis I will never be able to turn to another player and say aw man the MadCat is sooo cool or say how about that thor?

the game world would fall appart if we could create our own mechs at wim, and alot of what makes mechwarrior special would be lost.
therefore this cannot happen (scrapbuilding) at any time. plus how would you balance this?

there can be variants on different mechs but not free range of customization like in chromehounds
(shudders at the thought)
If you ever played chrome hounds you would know what i mean.
say no to franken mechs

[akito]

mockingfox, on 28 March 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I like mechwarrior because their are chassis and i get attached to a chassis and I pilot that chassis.
if we can all make our own chassis I will never be able to turn to another player and say aw man the MadCat is sooo cool or say how about that thor?

the game world would fall appart if we could create our own mechs at wim, and alot of what makes mechwarrior special would be lost.
therefore this cannot happen (scrapbuilding) at any time. plus how would you balance this?

there can be variants on different mechs but not free range of customization like in chromehounds
(shudders at the thought)
If you ever played chrome hounds you would know what i mean.
say no to franken mechs

This is where I disagree. Being able to free rain I was able to make a whole lot of fun mechs. One of my friends made "little black rain cloud" a light mech with 12 machine guns. Those machine guns tore up some armor, but he was so light he could die very easily.

Every build no matter how powerful has a weakness. I prefer to customize the hell out of my stuff.

[MaddMaxx]

akito, on 28 March 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

This is where I disagree. Being able to free rain I was able to make a whole lot of fun mechs. One of my friends made "little black rain cloud" a light mech with 12 machine guns. Those machine guns tore up some armor, but he was so light he could die very easily.

Every build no matter how powerful has a weakness. I prefer to customize the hell out of my stuff.

That would be rated as a "Gimmick Mech" and of no real use when fielded against a Team of 12 enemy Mechs who knew what they were doing. So building Gimmicky Mechs is fine, but in the end what is fielded for the real fight will be the ones that matter.

Just for FUN, let's say you were only allowed to own 4 Mechs in game (and had bought the Stable space for RL cash) how many Gimmicks would you carry?

And the reason the Stock mechs seem underpowered or non- optimal is well known. They were designed to fight armies of mixed composition. There is none of that in MWO yet. If they get added then yes, an MG may be a must carry.

[Doconicus]

Frankly, I think that you should have to tweak every little peice of the entire mech. Adding wattage to a plasma cannon, make an angle on the knee peice more acute, reducing wiring to save weight... etc. Yeah, I know, way over the top, but being able to become an expert on a single mech, would make this quite a sim, quite a sime indeed.

[Damocles]

akito, on 28 March 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

This is where I disagree. Being able to free rain I was able to make a whole lot of fun mechs. One of my friends made "little black rain cloud" a light mech with 12 machine guns. Those machine guns tore up some armor, but he was so light he could die very easily.

(General statement) What customizers often fail to notice is that many of their mechs are preexisting in-universe variants.

Example: Piranha (Intro date 3051, Clan Diamond Shark)
20tons, 12MGs, 2 ERML, 1 ERSL, 151kph

[MaddMaxx]

Damocles, on 28 March 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

(General statement) What customizers often fail to notice is that many of their mechs are preexisting in-universe variants.

Example: Piranha (Intro date 3051, Clan Diamond Shark)
20tons, 12MGs, 2 ERML, 1 ERSL, 151kph

And the Role it was actually intended for. 4 tons of armor = 50% protection. Never stop running... LOL!

Quote

"The Piranha was developed by Clan Diamond Shark shortly before the Battle of Tukayyid to combat Inner Sphere conventional infantry and light vehicles. The sheer speed that the BattleMech is capable of has also made it something of a scout, though it lacks sophisticated electronic equipment. The Piranha is protected mostly by its speed, though it does mount four tons of armor."

[Nalon Vau]

I take it being customisable as what they had in mech warrior 4 with being able to change weapons armor and heat sinks as well as additional gear like jump jets and lams or the bap.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Regulated freedom is a distraction by tyranny on those it regulates. Let the evolution of the game grow, not wither under the vain eyes of those who would hold sacred a static environment from fear and the maintenance of control. The context of opinion on what SHOULD be is not as valuable in play-ability to the value of what could be.

Power to the players!
Vive l'évolution militaire du jeu!

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 28 March 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[Railgunner2160]

From what I've read there will be some customizations avalibile but there will be limits to what can be done, From what I've read in the dev dispatches you can say switch out some lasers for autocannons, remove the missile launchers and add armor or heat sinks or ammo bins, at least within the weight and size tolerances of the mech, but you will not be able to take parts from other mechs and jury-rig them to your own, (In this case I'm meaning attaching the head of a Jenner to the Legs of a Atlas...). But you will have options if you can find them, I'm looking forward to playing with the system and seeing what I can do, Personally I myself am not going to go balistic with changes, at least not the really EXETREME changes some people are thinking of.....

[MaddMaxx]

Vexgrave Lars, on 28 March 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Regulated freedom is a distraction by tyranny on those it regulates. Let the evolution of the game grow, not wither under the vain eyes of those who would hold sacred a static environment from fear and the maintenance of control. The context of opinion on what SHOULD be is not as valuable in play-ability to the value of what could be.

Power to the players!
Vive l'évolution militaire du jeu!

I can't agree more.

"Regulate the Power Players!" "Vive la Regulators!" Ra Ra Ra

that is what he meant right?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 March 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

MaddMaxx, on 28 March 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

I can't agree more.

"Regulate the Power Players!" "Vive la Regulators!" Ra Ra Ra

that is what he meant right?

Much as I hate to do this.. I see what you did there

[Peiper]

I think it would be great to do some customization as long as it fits into the existing frame, and it would likewise be great if there were a couple different optional looks for each mech. For example: the Dragon has a gun arm and a hand arm. Using mirror images, it should be possible to put two gun arms on, or two hand arms. If you have two gun arms, you should have to autocannons or lasers, but not missles.
Another example would be easily switched out plates on the chest of an Atlas. Have blank pectorals, pecks with missle racks, or a laser lense. Same with the two lasers in the middle. One, two, or no lasers in the center torso. One or two gun racks on the hips/sides. The arms wouldn't be changed. You'd either have lasers/autocannons strapped to the forearms/wrists or not. Maybe the boxes would even remain, but would either have little barrels or laser lenses.
The change I would like to see most would be on the Zeus (I predict we'll have one soon). I'd rather have two gun arms than a gun and missle pod arm. A missle pod where my fist would be? Sounds like a recipe for disaster if I punch another mech, or bump it up against a wall and my arm gets torn apart by ammo explosions. Then again, it might be cool to see a zues with two missle pod arms, and two missle pod shoulders just stand back and like rambo, lean back and it appears that the arms and chest just explode missles out... Nevermind. That's a little TOO manga, huh? lol

So, in conclusion: customization should take into account the chassie and the LOOK of the mech first. The weapons you could mount would be logically sized and weighted to the chassie, and the mech must remain identifiable. Battlemechs are complex machines, and like I've said before: customize a car enough and it will only look good in a garage, but the alternator may not be able to run all the electronics, the battery may blow out the starter, the speakers could break all the windows, the engine could tear the drivetrain apart, the suspension could be crushed by the load, etc...

If the changes make the mech unrecognizable, then they shouldn't happen. But if I want to switch out an Awesomes 3 PPC's for four large lasers, well, that makes sense.

[Pht]

Vexgrave Lars, on 28 March 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Regulated freedom is a distraction by tyranny on those it regulates. Let the evolution of the game grow, not wither under the vain eyes of those who would hold sacred a static environment from fear and the maintenance of control. The context of opinion on what SHOULD be is not as valuable in play-ability to the value of what could be.

Power to the players!
Vive l'évolution militaire du jeu!

So, basically, you're equating anarchy (everyone does as he pleases) with freedom?

... Or did I read you wrong?

Edited by Pht, 28 March 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Logan Winters]

Trickey topic.

One thing that I've always loved about the battletech universe is the idea of custom mechs.

I dislike however, That it can lead to a lot of "Frankenmechs" E.G. Running into catapults that starts shooting gauss rifles at you.

I think that a limited mechlab is a good idea.

You can replace an LRM with an SRM

A Laser with a pulse laser.

AC with An LBX AC.

I agree that the 1:1 time scale is a good way to implement that.

I can change all my lasers to Pulse Lasers.. but it will take three days! (Thus discouraging things that are too outlandish)


It would make for more unpredictable combat as well. (which I think is cool)

A mech lab has a few things that need to be regulated, But it makes your mech all the more YOURS.

[JP Josh]

i think that the amount of customization you are allowed to do is dependent on the house you swear alliance to.

pirates in the days of sails completely and utterly changed their boat's to be faster and hold more cargo. why not let merc or lone wolf units custom our mech's to high heaven. just make it harder for us to come around cash and increase the repair bill for them that way we are forced to keep the customizing cost effective but also do well in battle.

[Katalis]

Based off of the table top game rules you could not change out the weapons, armor, or jump jets of innerspere mechs at whim. Field modifications had been developed which is where the variants came from. These took time to implement and didn't always work. Some times a popular modification became a production model. These were more reliable.

In some cases the mech crew was able to place a different weapon on a machine. That was usually an exception, as the proper equipment wasn't always available or battle damage prevented the replacement of the previous weapon. As with any field modification, these changes were unreliable.

It wasn't until the clans appeared with mechs that had a modular design, that choosing custom builds for a mission became possible. This was only possible for clan mechs.

However in the table top game it was possible to design a mech and use that for play. Like other innersphere mechs it would not be customizable.

The mech labs that allowed this in other MW games made them to easy and I didn't remain playing for long.

The reason customing mechs wasn't possible is because of how the mechs were built. Changing armor and weapon load outs would change the balance of the machine. The design of the innersphere mechs internal structure was more rigid. This didn't allow for easy modification.

However there was one innersphere mech that was built with modular design. The Mercury was the prototype mech for modular systems and it didn't continue in the innersphere. The clans saw the advantages and developed their mechs with modular use. So if you want to customize your innersphere mech use a Mercury.


As for having access to a mech factory where a person could purchase a mech of their design, that should be possible. There should be limitations to how often a player can design a new mech. As I said in a previous post, this was not an easy or cheap process. Most mech factories only produced one or two mech types at a time. This is because mech parts usually only worked on the mech they were designed for. So the factory would have to be well compensated to get them to retool their systems and build one specialized mech. Even then there is no guarantee that the mech functions right. It often takes several rebuilds before a mech functioned the way it was intended to.