156 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

After about 14 hours of work over the past 4 days, I have skilled up 24 of my 269 Mechs. (That's 4 IS drop decks and 1 Clan deck and a bit.)

I am left completely sapped of any enthusiasm to skill the remaining Mechs. I only managed a half dozen matches over the weekend. And those made me realise that I have to go back and refine some of the Mechs I already skilled up.

It doesn't take that long to click 91 hexagons. What actually chews up the time is:

• Deciding which IS Mech variants still have a chance of being competitive, after the massive nerf dealt in parallel with the skill tree. That requires trawling through PGI's user-unfriendly quirk list repeatedly by weight class.
  
• Educating yourself on all the tradeoffs. For example, whether it's better to choose structure over armor, operations heat buffs vs weapon heat buffs, etc. (Thank you all the players who contributed their insights and calculations.)
  
• Finding the optimal skill paths for your design decisions... manually counting which branches provide the fewest garbage nodes to get to the most of your goal nodes. (Jman's trees are a starting point - thank you to him for his good work - though I found several ways to optimise beyond his templates.)
  
• Deciding, when you - inevitably - run out of available SP before you unlock everything you felt was important, where to prune nodes you previously selected.
  
• Testing your build and discovering you can't live without those mobility or heat quirks you sacrificed for range or jump jets or sensors etc, and then respeccing again to address the shortfalls.

It's been relentless, headache-inducing, and not fun. And that's coming from someone who generally loves spending time tinkering in the MechLab. Worse, there's no "reward" for all the time sunk in this endeavor - your Mech ends up being gimped vs what it was, and you have a nagging feeling that maybe your 91 selections weren't optimal.

Don't get me wrong... I support the new Skill Tree. I'm relieved to put 5 years of clunky placeholders, skills that embarrassingly did nothing at all, and power creep, behind us. I acknowledge that the cumulative nerf is making Mechs feel more "Mech-like", particularly across weight classes.

But there was surely a better way to improve the quality of life for players in skilling up multiple Mechs, and stopping it from sucking out enthusiasm for the game?

At minimum, PGI has to enable us to cut and paste a set of skills from one Mech to another. That would be a good starting point for each successive skilling exercise. It'd be even better if they enabled us to export and share Skill Trees among ourselves. I'd feel better if someone else could benefit from the 14 hours I put into my 24 Mechs.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Hopefully if enough of us whales express our experiences, PGI will hear our pleas and get coding.

---

TL:DR. Why it takes so long to skill up Mechs. Skill tree needs significant QoL improvements. Some are suggested.

[Exilyth]

There is a simple solution: Just play, test what the mech in question needs, put in a node and test again, put in the next node, test and so on.

That's a lot less boring than skilling [large number] of mechs back to back.

[Ced Riggs]

Here's some time saver.

Agility Reference Sheet
MetaMechs' Skill Tree Guide

Should take you about 3 minutes tops per mech.

[RestosIII]

I'm sitting here staring at the skill trees for all my mechs, and I have no idea what to get. So I haven't leveled them at all yet. I'm... Surprisingly doing alright in unskilled mechs. Sure, they're Clan mechs, I'm taking a break from lore builds, and I only play pubs, but still. I think I might keep most of my mechs unskilled until the new tech comes out.

Anyways, I agree that the UI could use a bit of work, even if it's just a system where you can overlay one mech's skill tree setup over another, so it highlights in a different color what the other mech has skilled. That, and we could seriously use an update for the tutorials to explain the skill tree to new players, and confused old timers.

Ced Riggs, on 22 May 2017 - 02:38 AM, said:

Here's some time saver.

Agility Reference Sheet
MetaMechs' Skill Tree Guide

Should take you about 3 minutes tops per mech.

I'll add this onto the link train.

https://kitlaan.gitlab.io/mwoskill/

Edited by RestosIII, 22 May 2017 - 02:49 AM.

[Ziogualty]

Exilyth, on 22 May 2017 - 02:35 AM, said:

There is a simple solution: Just play, test what the mech in question needs, put in a node and test again, put in the next node, test and so on.

That's a lot less boring than skilling [large number] of mechs back to back.

Exactely what i tried to do.
And it worked at first.
Take a mech, make 3/5 matches, starting with zero nodes and skilling up where you felt it needs buffs.
Sometimes you need some more matches, because 3 matches in hot maps will not tell enough.

Problem is: i have 110 mechs, so i will need 550 matches just to reskill my mechs.
550 matches AND working at the skill tree require months.

Now look at the OP: he has 269 mechs, it means more than 1000 matches just to tune your mechs.
I dunno how much you guys play average, but for me 500+ matches means a lot of time. And too many for sure if the goal is just having my mechs like pre-patch.

[Scyther]

I agree with Exilyth. While I totally get where Appogee's coming from, I think part of the reason is that App chose a 'process method' that is agonizing.

My method: I do one mech. I have a baseline build they all get (Sensors/Mobility/Ops). That takes care of 62 nodes right there. It may not end up being 'perfect' for each mech, that's OK, I earn C-bills and Exp every match, I can go back and change them later.

Then I play a match. I haven't even assigned the other 29 nodes yet. I got 2/3 done, got in a match, boom it's quick. If I die early, I quit match and start the 62-node basic on the next mech. Otherwise when match is done, I decide what the mech needed, or maybe just start another match. Then I add in about 22 nodes from the 29 remaining, play some more matches.

I don't worry about getting it perfect (I can change it later), I don't worry about assigning every last node right away (it's a pug QP, I don't need to be minmaxed).

I spend 3 mins in the Skill Tree and then I'm dropping for battle. I spend 90% of my time ... in battle. Or at least, you know, waiting for a match, waiting for a loading screen, waiting for the drop screen... and then battle.

As soon as I have 2-3 matches in on that mech and 80 or so nodes assigned, I'm off to the next one. I can fine tune them later as I learn more. It's not a big deal at this point since plenty of changes are coming anyway.

Edit: If you aren't sure what to do with the skill tree, then add this thread to your forum reading list:
https://mwomercs.com...now-with-index/

Edited by MadBadger, 22 May 2017 - 02:49 AM.

[Old-dirty B]

I am very indecisive and perfectionistic by nature and now i have to make 91 decisions from a pool of 237 options.... for +/- 100 mechs... With each decision i usually overthink my previous decisions to be sure if didn't overlooked anything.

sigh

Edited by B3R3ND, 22 May 2017 - 02:49 AM.

[Exilyth]

How many of the [large number] of mechs do you play regularly?

You could try to divide the mech into variants you play a lot and variants you play only sometimes and leave the later unskilled for now.

[Ced Riggs]

Attank, on 22 May 2017 - 02:43 AM, said:

...

Oh boy, sounds like OP has the ability to tinker with his mechs for the next weeks to come. Over 500, if not 750 matches, and they are all going to be revisiting his mechs that he all loves equally. As we all know, if you have that many mechs, you need a strict schedule. With 269 mechs, and with 10 matches a day, you play each mech about once per month, and as a result, it is IMPERATIVE that you spec all mechs, instantly.

There is absolutely no approach, like, "I'll do my faves first, and my CW mechs." and "I feel like running this mech, lemme just quickly skill it out in a few minutes while Bob gets a beer, Martha changers her catheter and Jimmy masturbates with the mic on, EVERY DAMN TIME." OP could apply to not even be bothered.

/s

This is a self-imposed problem. If you want it to be a problem, that's on you. There is nothing and no one forcing you to skill every mech you have, and the HSP/Historic XP aren't getting stale, either. There is tons of resources on how to skill a mech half way decently.

Edited by Ced Riggs, 22 May 2017 - 02:54 AM.

[Ziogualty]

Ced Riggs, on 22 May 2017 - 02:53 AM, said:

Oh boy, sounds like OP has the ability to tinker with his mechs for the next weeks to come. Over 500, if not 750 matches, and they are all going to be revisiting his mechs that he all loves equally. As we all know, if you have that many mechs, you need a strict schedule. With 269 mechs, and with 10 matches a day, you play each mech about once per month, and as a result, it is IMPERATIVE that you spec all mechs, instantly.

There is absolutely no approach, like, "I'll do my faves first, and my CW mechs." and "I feel like running this mech, lemme just quickly skill it out in a few minutes while Bob gets a beer, Martha changers her catheter and Jimmy masturbates with the mic on, EVERY DAMN TIME." OP could apply to not even be bothered.

/s

This is a self-imposed problem. If you want it to be a problem, that's on you. There is nothing and no one forcing you to skill every mech you have, and the HSP/Historic XP aren't getting stale, either. There is tons of resources on how to skill a mech half way decently.

?????
The only thing i got about your post is: "noone force you to play all your mechs".
Yeah, man, i bought them because i love PGI, not because i like my mechs...

The rest of your post is written like the only goal was to please yourself, so if next time you speak more simple and plain would be better.

Edited by Attank, 22 May 2017 - 03:00 AM.

[Appogee]

Ced Riggs, on 22 May 2017 - 02:53 AM, said:

Oh boy, sounds like OP has the ability to tinker with his mechs for the next weeks to come. Over 500, if not 750 matches, and they are all going to be revisiting his mechs that he all loves equally. As we all know, if you have that many mechs, you need a strict schedule. With 269 mechs, and with 10 matches a day, you play each mech about once per month, and as a result, it is IMPERATIVE that you spec all mechs, instantly.

There is absolutely no approach, like, "I'll do my faves first, and my CW mechs." and "I feel like running this mech, lemme just quickly skill it out in a few minutes while Bob gets a beer, Martha changers her catheter and Jimmy masturbates with the mic on, EVERY DAMN TIME." OP could apply to not even be bothered.

/s

This is a self-imposed problem. If you want it to be a problem, that's on you. There is nothing and no one forcing you to skill every mech you have, and the HSP/Historic XP aren't getting stale, either. There is tons of resources on how to skill a mech half way decently.

I guess you missed the implication that, in fact, I did my CW Mechs first, precisely as you snarkingly suggested.

[justcallme A S H]

Hi hear you Appo.

4 days and I've got under 20 done. Half of that was chewed up by MRBC/Comp build and specc'ing and then afterwards, respeccing for FP because the two require totally different approaches for how I play those modes.

Private lobbies, testing, new movements (with/without speed tweak etc). It all takes up copious amounts of time.

I find it amusing that the majority of the white knight brigade are nothing more than T5-T3 QP warriors because it's same same movements each map, each time. So it makes little to no difference at a QP level where the carbohydrates are strong and they never play in or as a team.

Also same here - Skill Tree is a good idea. Having to select upwards of 20 useless nodes on some builds is crap and not "custom skilling a mech how you want", which is how it was advertised.

Should've / Could've been much simplier
Would've been received much better

Exilyth, on 22 May 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

How many of the [large number] of mechs do you play regularly?

You could try to divide the mech into variants you play a lot and variants you play only sometimes and leave the later unskilled for now.

For me between Comp, QP, FP - about 40-50 depending on what is happening. Playing IS and Clan means usually quite a big variance in what is going on.

I did half a dozen FP matches and afterwards, went back and spend another 60mins for 8 mechs I'd already kitted out making adjustments and so on due to not being happy with how they performed.

Likely I'll have to do it again once I play a few games as I skill each mech etc.

But meh, break for me - I expect to hardly play a game between now and late June.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 May 2017 - 03:00 AM.

[Ziogualty]

Appogee, on 22 May 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

I guess you missed the implication that, in fact, I did my CW Mechs first, precisely as you snarkingly suggested.

And that is just a "way", not for sure the best way.
Because if you are not really sure about nodes yet, or you need some test first, spending all your nodes on your precious CW mechs running the risk to make some mistakes is not wise.

I started with a couple mechs i was not crazy about, and moving to CW ones only when i feel comfortable with the new system.

[Bud Crue]

Agree with Appogee.
I started my skills tree contest to get some ideas and it sure has helped me, but still...

...just the monotony of the task, the forcing my self to confront that awful UI, the branches that don't fit on my screen and I have to zoom out to see the whole thing and then have to squint my old man eyes to see, etc. and that is all when I KNOW what I want to pick. When its a new mech? Then the task becomes even more daunting.

Sigh.

Honestly, my take on this whole boondoggle is that games are supposed to be fun. Building mechs has always been fun. Node-ing out these branches is just not fun. Then knowing that a lot of it will need to by changed when new tech arrives, and that I will get charged to make those changes, makes me want to engage in this unfun tast even less.

Edit Am I hallucinating? Or is the k in "task" above showing as "tast" on your screen too.

Edited by Bud Crue, 22 May 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[RestosIII]

Bud Crue, on 22 May 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

the branches that don't fit on my screen and I have to zoom out to see the whole thing and then have to squint my old man eyes to see

I thought that was just me needing a new pair of glasses. Hooray for mutual issues!

[justcallme A S H]

Attank, on 22 May 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

And that is just a "way", not for sure the best way.
Because if you are not really sure about nodes yet, or you need some test first, spending all your nodes on your precious CW mechs running the risk to make some mistakes is not wise.

I started with a couple mechs i was not crazy about, and moving to CW ones only when i feel comfortable with the new system.

You haven't even played 10 FP matches since the patch, so, how do you even know what you're going to do will work?

Whatever QP testing you do often does not have a lot of relevance as FP fights are generally far more extended, particularly team against team. The best way to test FP builds, oddly as it might sound, is in FP.

Appo is doing it the right way IMO.

[Scyther]

@justcallme A S H:
As a tier 3 player, I find it amusing that some Tier 1 players think the opinions and playstyle and recommendations of the people who make up 85% of the game population and therefore make MWO a viable game, aren't important because hey, they didn't 'git gud' like the Tier-snob did.

Here's some advice: 'git gud' at the skill tree and maybe it won't be so much work for you.

[justcallme A S H]

Good for you.

Given T5-T3 players bring the builds like THIS and then cry about getting rolled. What else is one to think?

[Scyther]

I guess what I'd think is that if I felt the need to completely go off-topic to toss yet another veiled insult at the less skilled players who make up by far the majority of the player base, I was obviously having issues with needing to stroke my own ego.

Thank heavens I don't feel that need.

[Shifty McSwift]

Appogee, on 22 May 2017 - 02:32 AM, said:

After about 14 hours

???

I will just assume this is largely exaggerated... Or perhaps that includes you falling asleep for 12 hours? 14 friggen hours? Really?