80 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

I have an easy adjustment that for some reason, took me like 30 min to figure out.

So PGI intentionally adjusted the tonnage to give IS a roughly 10% weight advantage. This is regardless of scouting or otherwise (55/50 and 265/240) so we can assume that every "370" damage a Clanner killed, is more like 1.1 mech. so you normalize based on that and divide 370 by 1.1, and what you end up with is 335.

If a conclusion is supposed to be reach that IS mech doesn't survive as long due to XL engine... yes, the stats would support it, as it takes 15 less damage on average to kill an IS mech. However, I must also caution and throw out a question:

How much of a disability is XL really?

Cause, as this average damage difference tells us, while 15 damage is nothing to be ignored, the fact is, most people during the frantic of the battle, is just shooting randomly into center mass. 335 hp is enough to kill an Atlas completely. (well, 75% of an Atlas or something like that), so XL is really not an issue when all is considered.

Now, a lot of people will point out that some IS units refused to use anything other than standard... which is a valid point. But as we are making assumptions, we should consider that 1/3 of the mechs destroyed come from scouting mode, where almost no IS medium/light use std. Also, the meta effective BM build is the 5 LPL with XL engine. But beyond those, everything else is assumption.

But let's just assume regardless... a mix deck of STD and XL is only a 15 HP handicap.

Yet, I feel this discussion is moot anyways, cause PGI DID adjust for that imbalance by implementing 10% extra weight. Thus, IS mechs on average do require an extra 19 to kill instead of 15 less.

Over 1 billion set of data is hard to say that a 2% advantage over average is negligible. Cause, it's true. Clan despite fighting the 10% handicap, still comes out at a consistent 2% edge. But, all and all, 2% is quite remarkable. Starcraft II balance easily can sway by 10 to 15%. Asymmetric factions to achieve only a 2% difference? That's actually quite good, and PGI does deserve applause for that.

Now, is there a way to completely erase that to achieve a 50/50? Statistically, yes... if 10% weight advantage is a 30 HP sway, then you just have to play around with the weight advantage until you can move the HP to kill of IS mech to 2% higher than it is now... (since Mechs only go in increment of 5... that means... 270 ton drop weight will probably do it.)

HOWEVER, meta data might show a balance, but this balance will not correct single game perception. The fact is, when an enemy can launch 2 assault waves, you do feel the pressure on the clan side. What's going to happen is that though the meta data will average out, the single game score might become more lopsided. It's going to be a stomp for whoever that wins... plain and simple.

But, that's just a prediction. I don't have the meta data to support a specific incremental balance... so, that's just from personal feel. Should IS drop deck increase to 270?

Or...

DOES NONE OF THIS MATTERS IN 2 MONTHS ANYWAYS, BECAUSE OF CIVIL WAR AND THE POSSIBILITY OF MIX DECK??????????????

[Reptilizer]

razenWing, on 18 May 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

I have an easy adjustment that for some reason, took me like 30 min to figure out.

So PGI intentionally adjusted the tonnage to give IS a roughly 10% weight advantage. This is regardless of scouting or otherwise (55/50 and 265/240) so we can assume that every "370" damage a Clanner killed, is more like 1.1 mech. so you normalize based on that and divide 370 by 1.1, and what you end up with is 335.

*snip*

Yet, I feel this discussion is moot anyways, cause PGI DID adjust for that imbalance by implementing 10% extra weight. Thus, IS mechs on average do require an extra 19 to kill instead of 15 less.

*snip*

Over 1 billion set of data is hard to say that a 2% advantage over average is negligible. Cause, it's true. Clan despite fighting the 10% handicap, still comes out at a consistent 2% edge. But, all and all, 2% is quite remarkable. Starcraft II balance easily can sway by 10 to 15%. Asymmetric factions to achieve only a 2% difference? That's actually quite good, and PGI does deserve applause for that.

This is a mess.

Tonnage advantage is irrelevant when looking at the data, because you have damage to kill per mech not per ton. And the number of mechs in a match is equal.

The percentage of advantage in regard to killing is to be counted by mechs killed, not damage done per kill. So the 2% are more like 8,5%. Even worse for interpreting the data, we do not necessarily win by kills but by objectives. So keeping balance is about keeping balance by means of wins. No use in having a "disadvantage" of whatever kind of only 1%, when this 1% disadvantage leads to 20% game win/loss disparity because the last mech standing can still fulfill the objectives (or is the objective ;P). Not saying we have such a huge disparity in win/loss, but you can not interpret the data the way you did...

[R Valentine]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

How does it then come that he average damage per killed mech is:

IS 369
Clan 351

Sure these statistics include nearly dead mechs that didn't die and some other conditions. But both sides have them. and when the IS mech is said to be sooo much more squishy how can it be that the average damage needed to kill an IS mech was actually higher than for clanmechs?

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out. Otherwise I want to see all those "clam XL Op" people to exlain me why the IS isn't having a significantly lower damage/mechkill ratio.

I just guess clan XL is as OP to some people, as LRM's are OP to some poeple.

Given that you're comparing heavier mechs vs. lighter mechs, because you know, IS drop decks have more tonnage, I'd say your comparison is 100% useless.

[Dogstar]

Well done Lily those are some top quality crocodile tears. Way to pick one stat, ignore all the factors influencing it, and come to the wrong conclusion.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

The only clan battlemechs I have are the Supenrovas and I haven't fielded them yet so all my mehcs are omis with XL's
And if you palyed FW during this evena nd know which IS emchs fielded IS you know how painfull they were They are worse than some of the XL mechs. Superiority of STD comes fom the survivability and when your group pushes and the beginnign emchs are STD wielding mechs you soak up lot of damage and generate heat on the clanside to make them get eaten afterwars by the more heatefficient IS weapons of your teammates. However if people paly it like 12 man solo groups, then sure it won't work well ever.

Yes, I played FW for the event. I out traded 5x LPL BLRs with Gauss and/or PPCs. I out brawled some of the tankier IS 'mechs in NTGs and MAD-IICs, simply because I knew they were running an XL and you can't torso twist Gauss or PPCs. This coming from me, who is;
1. Not that great of a player. Avg W/L just over 1, Avg K/D just over 1.1, Avg Score in the low 200s.
2. Bad at using both Gauss & PPCs. I find anything further out than 400m difficult to hit if it's not a Heavy or Assault.

The only STD engines that caused me trouble were in Scouting or when I miscalculated if a chassis was running an XL and overcommit to a killshot.

razenWing, on 18 May 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

Now, a lot of people will point out that some IS units refused to use anything other than standard... which is a valid point. But as we are making assumptions, we should consider that 1/3 of the mechs destroyed come from scouting mode, where almost no IS medium/light use std.

I beg to differ. The chassis I ran into most in Scouting was the Griffin and they were almost certainly running STDs. I know I died a few times because I forgot that in the heat of the moment, Alpha'd into their ST, only to imagine the other pilot laughing maniacally as they finished me off.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 18 May 2017 - 05:52 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

"You do not yet comprehend the power of the Dark Potato Side of the Force".

[razenWing]

Reptilizer, on 18 May 2017 - 04:35 AM, said:

This is a mess.

Tonnage advantage is irrelevant when looking at the data, because you have damage to kill per mech not per ton. And the number of mechs in a match is equal.

The percentage of advantage in regard to killing is to be counted by mechs killed, not damage done per kill. So the 2% are more like 8,5%. Even worse for interpreting the data, we do not necessarily win by kills but by objectives. So keeping balance is about keeping balance by means of wins. No use in having a "disadvantage" of whatever kind of only 1%, when this 1% disadvantage leads to 20% game win/loss disparity because the last mech standing can still fulfill the objectives (or is the objective ;P). Not saying we have such a huge disparity in win/loss, but you can not interpret the data the way you did...

I agree whole that tonnage is irrelevant, but only decide to bring it up because it was a point of discussion in page 1. But it does make for interesting assumption that I said are ultimately irrelevant.

As for the last part, again, I agree, but W/L data wasn't released, so we interpret and make ASSUMPTIONS based on what we are given. Besides, the discussion wasn't purely about the effectiveness of IS or Clan in completing game modes, but how effective they are at killing one another. In which case, drawing conclusion from K/D is more than enough.

I chose to use the 2% disparity data from kills because the end result that MATTERs, no matter how much damage, is to kill one another. You can farm and try to do 400 damage per mech, but if in the end, he's not dead, then it doesn't matter if you did 400 damage with no dead mech. BUT, for the sake of complete coverage, I remember the damage disparity is 4% over average, certainly not 8%. I don't have the excel spreadsheet saved, but you can easily calculate that by damage done by clan / damage done total.

[Malrock]

Ruh roh... we seem to have fallen into the trap of lies, damn lies, and statistics....

[Mortalcoil]

ROFL. Average damage.... Night Gyr pop tarts you in the left torso from behind. You are dead. GG. balanced.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 18 May 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Vonbach]

Mortalcoil, on 18 May 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

ROFL. Average damage.... Night Gyr pop tarts you in the left torso from behind. You are dead. GG. balanced.

Funny you should say that. I get shot in my roughneck first shot of the game green to orange and an SRM gone in one shot.
From the front mind you.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 18 May 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

The things I saw...

I saw C-bills raining from the sky when I was doing the FP event.

[Gyrok]

MadBadger, on 18 May 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

It's because IS pilots are actually better

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

Vonbach, on 18 May 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

Funny you should say that. I get shot in my roughneck first shot of the game green to orange and an SRM gone in one shot.
From the front mind you.

You are not frontloading your armor enough if you can get shot and crit a weapon in a single volley from the front in a 65 ton mech. Period.

Unless there was an alpha king DW on the field with an 84 alpha, what you are discussing is not feasibly possible.

[Vonbach]

Gyrok, on 18 May 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

You are not frontloading your armor enough if you can get shot and crit a weapon in a single volley from the front in a 65 ton mech. Period.

Unless there was an alpha king DW on the field with an 84 alpha, what you are discussing is not feasibly possible.

I max armor on all of my mechs if at all possible. It was a gauss shot from one mech.

Edited by Vonbach, 18 May 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

How does it then come that he average damage per killed mech is:

IS 369
Clan 351

Sure these statistics include nearly dead mechs that didn't die and some other conditions. But both sides have them. and when the IS mech is said to be sooo much more squishy how can it be that the average damage needed to kill an IS mech was actually higher than for clanmechs?

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out. Otherwise I want to see all those "clam XL Op" people to exlain me why the IS isn't having a significantly lower damage/mechkill ratio.

I just guess clan XL is as OP to some people, as LRM's are OP to some poeple.

If anything it shows it takes less damage to kill an IS mech due to the IS XL.

Edited by MechaBattler, 18 May 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[Gyrok]

MechaBattler, on 18 May 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

If anything it shows it takes less damage to kill an IS mech due to the IS XL.

It takes more damage to kill an IS mech by those numbers...did you read it wrong?

[MechaBattler]

Gyrok, on 18 May 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

It takes more damage to kill an IS mech by those numbers...did you read it wrong?

Yeah I think I did.

Edit: Wait, where is this figure coming from? I see total damage higher on the Clans side on the Tukayyid Statistics.

Edited by MechaBattler, 18 May 2017 - 07:01 PM.

[Gyrok]

MechaBattler, on 18 May 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Yeah I think I did.

Edit: Wait, where is this figure coming from? I see total damage higher on the Clans side on the Tukayyid Statistics.

Right, Damage/kills = damage to kill

EDIT: I think that is what was done but not 100% sure on that actually.

Edited by Gyrok, 18 May 2017 - 07:02 PM.

[Reptilizer]

razenWing, on 18 May 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

*snip*
BUT, for the sake of complete coverage, I remember the damage disparity is 4% over average, certainly not 8%. I don't have the excel spreadsheet saved, but you can easily calculate that by damage done by clan / damage done total.

Clan killed 49.683 more mechs than IS.
Total kills Clan were 583.702.
49.683 are 8.5% of 583.702.

Makes IS kill 8.5% less mechs then Clan.

[Lily from animove]

Reptilizer, on 19 May 2017 - 12:49 AM, said:

Clan killed 49.683 more mechs than IS.
Total kills Clan were 583.702.
49.683 are 8.5% of 583.702.

Makes IS kill 8.5% less mechs then Clan.

yes it does, but the amount of damage required for a kill is extremely similar. So while durability is rather equal in terms of damage/kill, clans still killed more mechs.

Mortalcoil, on 18 May 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

ROFL. Average damage.... Night Gyr pop tarts you in the left torso from behind. You are dead. GG. balanced.

So what? you fuly front laoded armor and the Night gyr pressed his magical "port behind enemy" button?

It is very much the "I've seen things" category when you turn your backs to the enemies. and this happend so often it is cry worthy, when entire lances turned their bakc sot the opponent group just to grab the kill on the one cored guy running off, yeah GG thats how you lose. and if they shot your CT it wouldn't happened that much more different.

especially on boreal I have sen this happenign a lot of times. People go left, and don't twist their torso to the right while walking there. this grants you easily 2 free kills of open backs (why just why?)
Same thing for beeign in the canyon at the left. Opponents run down into the canyon inbetween the opponents attacking which will cause either the guys in the back seeing their bakc, or the guys in the front. GG: get instant backshotted. by 2 or 3 people. The amount of back kills i did with just my 2PPC adder is cryworthy some people don't even recognize getting shot in the back with 3 volleys.

Pls don't blame that Night Gyr on your derp choice of positioning. Especially in FP when you know where opps will come from.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 May 2017 - 01:03 AM.

[razenWing]

Reptilizer, on 19 May 2017 - 12:49 AM, said:

Clan killed 49.683 more mechs than IS.
Total kills Clan were 583.702.
49.683 are 8.5% of 583.702.

Makes IS kill 8.5% less mechs then Clan.

You are right, you caught me on a mistake, but not one that you point out. When I normalize around the 50% average, I should have divided 2% additional by 50%, not 100. Thus making Clans 4% better than average, not 2%.


Actually, now that I think about it... my assumption to normalize around average is that out of 100 mechs, the more you kill is the less I kill. I don't know if that's the correct assumption. Hum...

(which is true with a known total or in a specific game... but argument can be made that the score is not changed to 13-11 if one of ours died, so it's technically not a zero-sum)

hum...

5 am math... always give me a headache.

Edited by razenWing, 19 May 2017 - 01:08 AM.