117 replies to this topic

[KodiakGW]

[Redacted]

KodiakGW, on 19 May 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Anyone who dares to call into question the skill tree has been labeled toxic by the pro-skill tree ones. Yet they are the same ones dropping such useful comments like I LOVE THE SKILL TREE. LEARN TO SKILLZ! So, who is being toxic?

Thanks for proving my point. Notice how he skipped over that part of my same post to inject his vitriol on only one part of my post. That's what they do. Well done troll boy!

Edited by Zoeff, 20 May 2017 - 04:42 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Ted Wayz, on 18 May 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

Seriously, day three and the bodies are mounting.

And unless you apologist are ready to fully fund this game, you should stop attacking those who have valid criticisms of the new skill system and start listening. And then start working to help PGI to fix this garbage.

Personally unless I hear what PGI's promise is to create a system to allow people with many mechs to rapidly regain their mechs past status, I will cancel my pre-orders and shut the wallet.

And if you are not supporting this game...if you choose to comment with your one mech earned from academy c-bills and haven't spent a cent on this game...just stop. If PGI was smart you wouldn't even be able to post because frankly you do not matter to their bottom line.

I'm still waiting to hear valid criticisms other than "too many clicks" and "too many junk nodes." Those are the only valid ones I've heard. Everyone else is just whining because they don't want to spend time re-mastering their stuff, or they're too addicted to the power creep to accept a global nerf.

[SFC174]

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

I'm still waiting to hear valid criticisms other than "too many clicks" and "too many junk nodes." Those are the only valid ones I've heard. Everyone else is just whining because they don't want to spend time re-mastering their stuff, or they're too addicted to the power creep to accept a global nerf.

I'm still waiting to hear a valid reason for the new skill tree to exist....

It didn't make the game better, it didn't improve gameplay experience, and the global nerf isn't any fun. See how easy that is?

Look, when the various iterations of the PTS were released several dedicated forumers put together some very detailed critiques/alternatives to what PGI proposed for the skill tree. They didn't say "no, no, we won't go". They made a good faith assumption that PGI was trying to improve the game and that the skill tree was going to happen and they came up with some really, really good changes. In particular they addressed the UI, the horrible gating paths, and they even made tradeoffs between different skill selections more pronounced and obvious, which would have in turn led to more specialization/roles which has been an announced goal for some time.

In the end, PGI pretty much ignored all those efforts, and the only real changes they've made in the skill tree were the removal of a couple gates in the firepower tree, and some value changes per node. Along the way they also nerfed a bunch of IS mechs, performed the engine decoupling, nerfed ECM and broke AMS. Maybe, just maybe, if they had done the skill tree implementation first, there could have been some useful dialog/feedback (long shot). But by ignoring what were arguably superior suggestions from the playerbase (in part or whole), and then implementing the ST with both blanket and mech specific nerfs, they were doomed from the start.

[Nightmare1]

SFC174, on 19 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

It didn't make the game better,

Yes it did.

SFC174, on 19 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

it didn't improve gameplay experience,

Yes it did.

SFC174, on 19 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

and the global nerf isn't any fun.

Yes it is.

SFC174, on 19 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

See how easy that is?

SFC174, on 19 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

Look, when the various iterations of the PTS were released several dedicated forumers put together some very detailed critiques/alternatives to what PGI proposed for the skill tree. They didn't say "no, no, we won't go". They made a good faith assumption that PGI was trying to improve the game and that the skill tree was going to happen and they came up with some really, really good changes. In particular they addressed the UI, the horrible gating paths, and they even made tradeoffs between different skill selections more pronounced and obvious, which would have in turn led to more specialization/roles which has been an announced goal for some time.

In the end, PGI pretty much ignored all those efforts, and the only real changes they've made in the skill tree were the removal of a couple gates in the firepower tree, and some value changes per node. Along the way they also nerfed a bunch of IS mechs, performed the engine decoupling, nerfed ECM and broke AMS. Maybe, just maybe, if they had done the skill tree implementation first, there could have been some useful dialog/feedback (long shot). But by ignoring what were arguably superior suggestions from the playerbase (in part or whole), and then implementing the ST with both blanket and mech specific nerfs, they were doomed from the start.

I was one of the PTS testers. PGI did make changes and nailed most of the items in my bucket list. I still have a few outstanding, but I think the devs took a very strong step in the right direction this time. We can tweak it going forward, but there's zero reason to fully remove it.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Solahma's idea was an 8/10.

PGI's is a 6/10.

It's acceptable. The UI stinks, it's a little ridiculous, but it's good enough.

Pros:
Got rid of the rule of 3
Paying 4 million c-bills to fully skill a mech is cheaper than buying modules was

Cons:
It's dull. Especially in comparison with Solahma's
It's simpler than it looks, but it looks like a mess. Solahma's looked simpler but offered more depth

People are right that it's heavily flawed, but overall I'm still enjoying mwo a lot. I have 100-200 mechs and skill them as I go. It takes just a couple minutes now.

[Nightmare1]

CtrlAltWheee, on 19 May 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

Solahma's idea was an 8/10.

PGI's is a 6/10.

It's acceptable. The UI stinks, it's a little ridiculous, but it's good enough.

Pros:
Got rid of the rule of 3
Paying 4 million c-bills to fully skill a mech is cheaper than buying modules was

Cons:
It's dull. Especially in comparison with Solahma's
It's simpler than it looks, but it looks like a mess. Solahma's looked simpler but offered more depth

People are right that it's heavily flawed, but overall I'm still enjoying mwo a lot. I have 100-200 mechs and skill them as I go. It takes just a couple minutes now.

This. It's not perfect and needs work, but it's better than what we had and a good step in the right direction. We can fix it going forward, but going backwards would be disastrous.

[PurplePuke]

SFC174, on 19 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

I'm still waiting to hear a valid reason for the new skill tree to exist....

Then you haven't been paying attention, have you?

[Moebius Pi]

Threads like these provide something constructive (beyond the occasional gem suggestion that does come around);

It gives me a reason to cook up some half-lucid rant/reality check to keep entertained by when the salt miner whistle blows for another season of *****-tittery (sounds remarkably tight assed squeaky flatulent, to be fair). You could almost sew crops to these cycles.

Oh, wait, constructive. Verbal explosive diarrhea I suppose isn't -really- that. Maybe I should save the next one that blasts an assful of oddly tinged salt at folks complaining about the time investment to respec for a rainy day.

You know...

Because grinding out two extra unwanted variants, buying extra variant copys with c-bills and the time it took to gain that after the other two variants, bitching about the time it takes on the forums to spec, discussing the next meta, rejiggering everything during a quirk pass yet again, grabbing the next meta roster for comp, discussing next drop deck composition, next team composition, next team roster, figuring out how to stack a division in your favour for maximum prizes (gotta drop that water weight to fight under your class, eh?), grinding out xp and c-bills for more modules etc. etc. didn't suck up a whole hell of a lot more time, and isn't as is.

Almost sounds... lazy, doesn't it? Kinda complacent, maybe a bit entitled that **** changes and requires a bit of time to get rolling with? That folks would ***** for years about an old, ossified placeholder as being garbage and yet... still treat this like a game-killing nuclear-****-splosion (in heavy need of some updating and streamlining, but ho-lee-****, hyperbole much?).

**** me. Respeccing a mech or two by comparison is a breeze (with a hint of methane, but still a breeze).

"No, not about the Respeccing again, Mr. Lahey...please", "I am the Respec, Randy, 36,400XP worth, Randy. I could drink down 2+ nodes a match easily, Randy. Hell, 3, 4, a hell of a lot more. I've lost track. Watch me drink them, Randy, we've become the One Node, the one Respec Path to Rule Them All. You'll see the little ****-nuggets dance unaware of the skill path behind the scenes. Watch and witness my apotheosis. The ****** community drove me to it, Randy and they'll suffer for it, one respec at a time... because they ain't got time for that ****".

[InvictusLee]

Yeah, I'm not giving PGI anymore money.

They dont care.
The artwork looks nothing like the actual mechs.
The actual hardpoints suck and dont actually warrant the stupidly high pricetag:new clan heros are a great example.
I'm starting to regret my pre-orders now that I've seen how this new skill tree works.
I mastered three, out of 8 mechs, with 8 mechs worth of HXP, XP, SP, GXP and MC.
It's too damn costly and time consuming to even attempt to max a full drop deck of clan or IS mechs.

On top of that my current mech performance is way inferior to the module system.
They've gated all the things I want on my slow and heavy mechs such as radar dep, and now I have to choose if I want armor or mobility over radar dep on my super slow KGC when I previously had both + Radar Dep. Granted, my mechs are alot tankier than before (but now suddenly its a huge target for LRMS which it was not in the past), even with XL engines, but it still does not change the fact that alot of the stuff I want or need on my mechs to optimize them is 10 nodes down, gated behind **** I dont actually need or want to make my mech function to the degree of effectiveness that I know they are capable of. If we had an extra 30 nodes, then maybe the gating would be tollerable, but as it stands with the current system, I dont see how to reconcile this system to my mechs.

I'm on the cusp of asking for a refund on the packs I've ordered.

[SFC174]

PurplePuke, on 19 May 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Then you haven't been paying attention, have you?

The post was partially in jest to respond to Nightmare's. It's opinion. He likes the skill tree. I don't. We could do that all day. The community seems pretty split on it, which is a bad thing for PGI - especially because its unlikely that every person who cancels a pre-order will be offset by someone spending twice as much because they like it.

That said, the new skill tree doesn't offer anything for me. In part because of the blanket nerfs, mech performance as a whole suffers. I don't think many disagree with this. Yes, some variants, particularly those that retained major quirks, have the option to specialize into an area that provides benefits (usually armor/structure). You may be ok with a blanket nerf. I'm not, as part of the appeal of MWO for me was the way certain mechs felt while piloting them (often thanks to big engines or big quirks).

I'll stipulate to dropping the rule of 3 as a generally good thing (although it might be bad for PGI revenues). But that did not require the skill tree to do it. PGI could have done that at any time they wished. And TBH, the rule of 3 at least got me into learning how to play some mechs/styles/loadouts I probably wouldn't have if I didn't have to go through it (unintended benefit, not a reason to keep it).

PGI, like most companies, seems to have a "Not Invented Here" attitude. Had they taken Solahma's idea and run with it, I think the yay/nay would be more like 75/25 than the 50/50 it seems to be. But the current skill tree still feels like change for change's sake to me.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Nightmare1, on 19 May 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

I'm still waiting to hear valid criticisms other than "too many clicks" and "too many junk nodes." Those are the only valid ones I've heard. Everyone else is just whining because they don't want to spend time re-mastering their stuff, or they're too addicted to the power creep to accept a global nerf.

The BEST mechs (Clans & BLR) got even better in comparison while the worst mechs got even worse. If you were not reading how truly crappy the Skill Maze is in that it fails to not only accomplish its stated goals but to push the power creeped mechs up even more, then you were obviously not paying attention!!!!!

[Felicitatem Parco]

I like the skill tree.

The fact that it "blanket nerfs" things means my opponents' Mechs are all nerfed. No loss to me.

What I gain is the ability to spec my Mechs how I want to spec them. I like choice, despite how many painful mouse clicks I have to endure... Considering that Mouse1 is my keybind for Firing Group 1, it doesn't affect me much.

I don't care about the Gated Skills because I intend to use them all. The are only very rare instances where a gateway skill is non-functional on a mech. If I have to get a few boosts on the way to get a boost, that's fine by me.

I get access to skills I did not have before. I can carry more sensor skills than the module system would ever allow.

All in all, it is a fine replacement for the bland system from before which was bad for new players, bad for free players (both SUPER BAD for a F2P game, mind you) and made me waste SO MUCH TIME swapping modules and hunting them down.

If you want to take the skill tree away, you can pry it from my cold, dead hands.

I don't give a flying **** about defending PGI as you can see from my comments I think he Clan Hero IIC hardpoints thread. I just like the skill tree more than the old system, and to say it is a step backwards is hogwash.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 May 2017 - 03:29 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 19 May 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

The BEST mechs (Clans & BLR) got even better in comparison while the worst mechs got even worse. If you were not reading how truly crappy the Skill Maze is in that it fails to not only accomplish its stated goals but to push the power creeped mechs up even more, then you were obviously not paying attention!!!!!

no Clan mech got worse? well i got to jump in my ACH / SCR / HBK-IIC/ TBR / MAD-IIC / KDK / DWF then,
or right all those mechs where Nerfed heavally in mobility, they drive like dump trucks now(unless you use 35SP)

many IS mechs got better, the VND and CRBs are heavy levels of armor, lets not even look to the AS7-K,
you can do amazing things, just because IS mechs lost some Weapon Quirks doesnt mean they are useless,

[Felicitatem Parco]

Guys, time to stop talking about PGI performing mobility nerfs and quirks, and folding quirks into base stats, etc.

Those are not part of the skill tree.

The skill tree is about how nodes are replacing the basic and master tiers of skills.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 May 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[Tordin]

Lupis Volk, on 18 May 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

I have yet to have seen any other gaming community so set on stopping the developer from developing like you guys have.

kudos your a special kind of toxicity. Please stay away from HBS's Battletech game i know you'll bring it there as well.

You guys hate change more than actual autistic people do, wow!

Yup. Salters knew very well what they were getting into regarding MWO, if not they shouldnt let their tears of ignorance poison others who actually enjoy the game. But yeah if coming up with contructive ideas and colleborate with new players and veterans alike. By all means.

Me for example wish there were nodes for mixed loadouts (generalist, non boating, you know pair of MG, some lasers and missile weapons etc). Combined nodes with say +4 ammo for missile and ballistic weapons. Different colors of course. Nodes for 2 or 3 weapon types.
Since we alredy have specialized nodes for Missiles, energy and ballistic. Why ot combine them, 2 or 3 for less % and such to balance it out. Since it should be added atop of the specialized ones aswell.

Example. We got lbx and missile spread decrease nodes. Why not combine them? Or ammo increase nodes for both missile and ballistic weapons but instead of +8, lessen it to +6 or +4.

Edited by Tordin, 19 May 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[spottiedogman]

Has anyone picked up on the fact that the same negative forum fire that we are seeing now stopped Information Warfare, Energy Draw, and had them change the mini map mess in a hurry?

The difference is that this change effects the economy of the game and those not so much. It really makes me worry about what changes are coming in the future that will be a further sink.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 May 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

no Clan mech got worse? well i got to jump in my ACH / SCR / HBK-IIC/ TBR / MAD-IIC / KDK / DWF then,
or right all those mechs where Nerfed heavally in mobility, they drive like dump trucks now(unless you use 35SP)

many IS mechs got better, the VND and CRBs are heavy levels of armor, lets not even look to the AS7-K,
you can do amazing things, just because IS mechs lost some Weapon Quirks doesnt mean they are useless,

ACH??? You mean the BIGGEST buff to Agility that happened.... wow man. Trying not being utterly wrong before thinking you can correct me, All the 100T mech got hammered but otherwise your list does not hold up at all. Survival tree is a trap for the truly terrible, there is like 4 mechs in the entire game worth taking it in.

[Templar Dane]

Ted Wayz, on 18 May 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

Seriously, day three and the bodies are mounting.

And unless you apologist are ready to fully fund this game, you should stop attacking those who have valid criticisms of the new skill system and start listening. And then start working to help PGI to fix this garbage.

Personally unless I hear what PGI's promise is to create a system to allow people with many mechs to rapidly regain their mechs past status, I will cancel my pre-orders and shut the wallet.

And if you are not supporting this game...if you choose to comment with your one mech earned from academy c-bills and haven't spent a cent on this game...just stop. If PGI was smart you wouldn't even be able to post because frankly you do not matter to their bottom line.

Player threatens to stop spending money on game if it isn't fixed.

Implies the opinions of those who aren't spending money on the game don't matter.

[Vonbach]

Removing the engine decouple would go a long way to fixing a lot of the issues.

[Nightmare1]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 19 May 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

The BEST mechs (Clans & BLR) got even better in comparison while the worst mechs got even worse. If you were not reading how truly crappy the Skill Maze is in that it fails to not only accomplish its stated goals but to push the power creeped mechs up even more, then you were obviously not paying attention!!!!!

I disagree. So far, my in-game experiences have been very positive with it.

It's only been a few days. Give it time. Anything this big should be live for at least a full week for everyone to test it rigorously and for good data collection anyways.