57 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Title kinda says it all.. I was pondering swapping 10 nodes, i could get this heat swap. Do the numbers say which is better?

really need a math guru anyone get this figured out yet, what % cool run ='s what % heat gen.

[Dee Eight]

The heat generation nodes are better if you have a high heat load mech. You need a LOT of heat sinks for the 6% to pay off more. Say you use buy the champion build BLR-2C, and change the MPLs to regular MLs. You could then upgrade the engine to a 325 standard and fit one more DHS, bringing it to 21 total. Those 21 heat sinks combine for 3.65 hps of cooling, so 10% of that is 0.365 per second. So if you Alpha striked each time, you'd be at 36 heat per volley. So it would be 8.966 seconds to cool that heat generated back to zero. If on the other hand you had already invested into the skill tree to go after all the range nodes, then you'd be pretty close to most all the heat generation nodes also. 40 nodes in the firepower tree should unlock all 14 heat nodes for a combined 10.5% (as well as 15% range, 3.75% laser duration and 10.5% cool down). So each alpha strike volley is now 32.22 heat, which will cool to zero (without the cooling operation nodes) in 8.827 seconds. You could incidently use 3 MPLs and a 380XL with the same 21 DHS total.

Edited by Dee Eight, 18 May 2017 - 10:37 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dee Eight, on 18 May 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

The heat generation nodes are better if you have a high heat load mech.

No, they really aren't.

Here's some simple math to prove it:
For a mech with 50% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 3.84 (4 originally) heat generated which translates to 52.08333% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 4 heat generated which translates to 53% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 33% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 5.76 (6 originally) heat generated which translates to 34.7222% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 6 heat generated which translates to 35.333% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 25% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 7.68 (8 originally) heat generated which translates to 26.041666% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 8 heat generated which translates to 26.5% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

The advantages of cool run over heat gen are ambivalent to the heat load (and vice versa, the advantages are ambivalent to how many DHS you run).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 May 2017 - 10:46 AM.

[Dee Eight]

As another example...take a brand new kodiak 2.... 2 LPL in each arm and 2 ERSL in the center torso. Remove the UAC/20 and the Streak-6 and the jump jets. Put a TC1 in the head and fill both side torsos with 5 DHS each. Counting the two in the legs and the 6 extra in the engine and that's 28 total so 4.7 heat per second of dissipation. 10% of cool run brings that to 5.17. It takes 17 nodes total in the operations tree to get the 10% of cool run. Using just firing a pair of the LPLs together as an example, that 20 year requires 3.864 seconds to cool to zero. If you had 10.5% heat generation nodes instead, it'd be 3.808 to cool to zero.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dee Eight, on 18 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

As another example...take a brand new kodiak 2.... 2 LPL in each arm and 2 ERSL in the center torso. Remove the UAC/20 and the Streak-6 and the jump jets. Put a TC1 in the head and fill both side torsos with 5 DHS each. Counting the two in the legs and the 6 extra in the engine and that's 28 total so 4.7 heat per second of dissipation. 10% of cool run brings that to 5.17. It takes 17 nodes total in the operations tree to get the 10% of cool run. Using just firing a pair of the LPLs together as an example, that 20 year requires 3.864 seconds to cool to zero. If you had 10.5% heat generation nodes instead, it'd be 3.808 to cool to zero.

Except you are forgetting the 3 heat containment nodes you HAVE to get to get all cool run nodes, in other words your math is off. Heat gen acts like a mixture of both cool run and heat containment so it is important to use both heat containment AND cool run in calculations.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 May 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[FireStoat]

I'm not gonna lie. I sink the 20 points into Operations for max heat containment and cool running as well as around 29-32 in Firepower (depends on mech) to get heat reduction at 9+% because I'm too cheap to spend 40,000 Cbills on using cool shot 18's. I used to use the cheaper cool shot 6's each match and those were phased out.

If I'm going to take a 40,000 Cbill hit to my final earnings, it will be from a well placed UAV instead.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dee Eight, on 18 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

As another example...take a brand new kodiak 2.... 2 LPL in each arm and 2 ERSL in the center torso. Remove the UAC/20 and the Streak-6 and the jump jets. Put a TC1 in the head and fill both side torsos with 5 DHS each. Counting the two in the legs and the 6 extra in the engine and that's 28 total so 4.7 heat per second of dissipation. 10% of cool run brings that to 5.17. It takes 17 nodes total in the operations tree to get the 10% of cool run. Using just firing a pair of the LPLs together as an example, that 20 year requires 3.864 seconds to cool to zero. If you had 10.5% heat generation nodes instead, it'd be 3.808 to cool to zero.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Except you are forgetting the 3 heat containment nodes you HAVE to get to get all cool run nodes, in other words your math is off. Heat gen acts like a mixture of both cool run and heat containment so it is important to use both heat containment AND cool run in calculations.

Geez who do I trust. I just can't decide.....

[Nik Reaper]

It seems both are ok choices , though there is an Opera size But here, and that is that heat dissipation is tied to heatsinks , so for clanners who run a dead side mech it goes to sht when they lose that side, while no one can take away the heat gen reduction...

[FupDup]

You can just grab all of them you know. Heat gen, cool run, and heat contain. At the same time.

It's not overkill because nearly every build in this game is forced to eventually (or quickly) overheat no matter what you do.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 18 May 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

You can just grab all of them you know. Heat gen, cool run, and heat contain. At the same time.

It's not overkill because nearly every build in this game is forced to eventually (or quickly) overheat no matter what you do.

Yeah. Even IS UAC/5 boats heat up quickly.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

Yeah. Even IS UAC/5 boats heat up quickly.

That's why I said "nearly" every build.

EDIT: My sarcasm detector is broken and got a false-positive here.

Edited by FupDup, 18 May 2017 - 01:32 PM.

[Vxheous]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Except you are forgetting the 3 heat containment nodes you HAVE to get to get all cool run nodes, in other words your math is off. Heat gen acts like a mixture of both cool run and heat containment so it is important to use both heat containment AND cool run in calculations.

I tested this out yesterday in private matches for close to an hour, on various maps across all temp ranges (from Frozen city, to canyon network, to terra therma). We took identical Timberwolves with 2LPL/4ML and 24 double heatsinks, on two computers side by side in the same room (same ping to PGI server +/- 2ms), and on the first Timber, we took 20 pts Operations (max cool run and max heat containment), while the second Timber, we took max heat gen 10.5%, no cool run or heat containment. Across all maps, the first Timber alpha vs second Timber alpha had a ~2-3% lower heat alpha (so the first Timber would alpha for 44%, while the second one would alpha for 47%). Strangely enough, BOTH timbers would hit base heat (0-3% depending on map) at .25 secs of each other. This happened across all maps. In fact, I believe the Ops specced timber still had 5.25% heat gen on top of the cool run/heat containment, and still the results were pretty much dead even (the cooling back to baseline at .25 secs of each other)

So either heat containment and cool running isn't coded properly by PGI, or Heat Gen is for all intents and purposes just as good as heat containment and cool running, except when I spec into Heat Gen, I get to pick up more range and cooldown nodes as compared to quick ignition and hill climb/speed retention gating nodes.

Of course, if you want to skimp elsewhere on the trees, you can always grab all the heat gen nodes and all the cool run/heat containment nodes, but that would take minimum 55 pts to do, leaving 36 pts to go elsewhere.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 18 May 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 18 May 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

That's why I said "nearly" every build.

I mean, I was agreeing with you. Have you played the MAL-1R? 4 UAC5s is a HOT build, to the point where you might as well just take a BLR-2C lol.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

I mean, I was agreeing with you. Have you played the MAL-1R? 4 UAC5s is a HOT build, to the point where you might as well just take a BLR-2C lol.

Oh, I though you were being sarcastic.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 18 May 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

So either heat containment and cool running isn't coded properly by PGI, or Heat Gen is for all intents and purposes just as good as heat containment and cool running, except when I spec into Heat Gen

When you fully spec into heat gen, it should be almost as good as cool run/heat containment.

It provides slightly better DPS when you look at it:

• 10.5% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 5.37 (6 originally) heat generated which translates to 37.244% heat efficiency
  
• 10% Cool run = 2.2 dissipation (2 originally) and 6 heat generated which translates to 36.667% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.575% improvement of heat gen over cool run

Due to 15% heat containment, you have a 57.5 heat cap whereas with heat gen, you effectively have a 55.25 heat cap. You are also spending 14 total nodes to get these bonuses compared to the 10 (not counting fillers for either). So there are trade-offs. Keeping in mind that there are other things that generate heat (like JJs) so cool run is also more universal than heat gen.

Overall, I think you get more out of the firepower tree since for laser boats and PPC/Gauss builds since you get other nice things instead of the stupid fillers you get with ops, but having both is super nice and honestly more worthwhile than a full durability tree imo since you can do a lot more damage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 May 2017 - 01:33 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 18 May 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Oh, I though you were being sarcastic.

Nope.

Took the 4 UAC5 MAL-1R to Terra Therma for Faction Play thinking I would run cool. LOLno.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

Due to 15% heat containment, you have a 57.5 heat cap whereas with heat gen, you effectively have a 55.25 heat cap. You are also spending 14 total nodes to get these bonuses compared to the 10 (not counting fillers for either). So there are trade-offs.

And I think there are more filler nodes to get the heat gen... but also more useful nodes like range and cooldown, so maybe that's not so bad.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Geez who do I trust. I just can't decide.....

I know right?

[Khobai]

Quote

It's not overkill because nearly every build in this game is forced to eventually (or quickly) overheat no matter what you do.

sure if you hold down fire and walk at the enemy in a straight line I suppose you would overheat

[Vxheous]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

And I think there are more filler nodes to get the heat gen... but also more useful nodes like range and cooldown, so maybe that's not so bad.

Here is a 35 pt Firepower tree that gets full heat gen, with no filler nodes:
https://tarogato-mwo...4c-6ddfac8f1628

You can actually do it with 34 pts, and go 11% instead of 12% range, or, go 11% range and take an extra cooldown node, or drop to 34 pts, 10% range, up one cooldown node.

I would probably take range over cooldown, since after a couple alphas, you're limited by your heat dissipation more than your weapon's cooldown.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 18 May 2017 - 01:57 PM.

[Old-dirty B]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

When you fully spec into heat gen, it should be almost as good as cool run/heat containment.

It provides slightly better DPS when you look at it:

• 10.5% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 5.37 (6 originally) heat generated which translates to 37.244% heat efficiency
  
• 10% Cool run = 2.2 dissipation (2 originally) and 6 heat generated which translates to 36.667% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.575% improvement of heat gen over cool run

Due to 15% heat containment, you have a 57.5 heat cap whereas with heat gen, you effectively have a 55.25 heat cap. You are also spending 14 total nodes to get these bonuses compared to the 10 (not counting fillers for either). So there are trade-offs. Keeping in mind that there are other things that generate heat (like JJs) so cool run is also more universal than heat gen.

Overall, I think you get more out of the firepower tree since for laser boats and PPC/Gauss builds since you get other nice things instead of the stupid fillers you get with ops, but having both is super nice and honestly more worthwhile than a full durability tree imo since you can do a lot more damage.

According to my believe you are mixing two different values or scales, cool run affects a rate (heat per sec loss) where heat gen affects total heat generate (just heat). I think you need to translate generated heat into a rate (heat per sec gain) where the effective cooldown (plus laser duration if applicable) sets the timeframe in which the total heat is generated (heat generated / cooldown time = heat per sec gain). It is then when you can truely compare heat gain vs heat loss.

In my calculations a build with above 37% heat efficiency gains more from cooldown, a build with less heat efficiency gains more from heat gen nodes.

Edited by B3R3ND, 18 May 2017 - 01:59 PM.