15 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

The UAC Jam reduction nodes takes an investment of 16 Skill Nodes to get full benefit. Full benefit equals a Jam chance reduction of less than 1%.

While I understand the intent of the increase of jam chances was to control dakka on Mechs like the KDK-3 and NGR, it really hurt Mechs that use mix builds which include UACs much more.
Anything that can run 3 or more UACs is still viable in the game. Anything that runs only 1 or 2 UACs is pretty much required to avoid double tapping unless it is a desperation move.

I tested a dual UAC5 Hellbringer extensively on PTS after the changes. One or more of my guns was in a jam condition 27% of the time when double tapping all shots. I did the same test after picking up both UAC Jam reduction nodes on the LIVE server since the ST patch. With both nodes equipped my jam chances were almost exactly the same when double tapping every shot.

Please consider either raising the node value to allow around a 2% jam reduction or better yet create a system that gives incremental jam chance increases based on the number of UACs that are equipped.Something like:

1 UAC - 13% Jam chance
2 UAC - 15% Jam chance
3 UAC - 17% Jam chance
4 UAC - 19% Jam chance
etc.

That way boating is discouraged or controlled but mixed builds which depend on UACs for firepower are not unreasonably penalized. With the IS receiving UACs soon as well this would be a good time to revisit the problem.

Another alternative would be to reduce the number of Jam nodes to one and double its effect. I might use it then. I bought them at first, tested them and then did a respec and dropped then because they were not worth the investment at their present value. It cost me some SP to find this out.

Edited by Rampage, 20 May 2017 - 09:12 PM.

[Pixel Hunter]

I don't think dakka was really hurt after this patch. still seeing the meta kodiaks running about, even more deadly than before, making lunch of my atlas

[sarcasm] skill tree sure fixed balance right up [/sarcasm]

[Cy Mitchell]

Gimpy117, on 20 May 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

I don't think dakka was really hurt after this patch. still seeing the meta kodiaks running about, even more deadly than before, making lunch of my atlas

[sarcasm] skill tree sure fixed balance right up [/sarcasm]

My point exactly. This patch did not change the Jam rate it just added nodes to lower it. The big change to UAC jam rate was done back in late 2015. It was seemingly done to control the Kodiak and Night Gyr dakka builds. It hurt the UAC weapon overall and really clobbered mixed builds that use 1 or 2 UACs, It lowered the DPS on the target Mechs a bit but it did not stop them because they both use 4 UACs together. Having one or two jam when you have four reduce your DPS but does not stop your damage output almost completely.

I feel they need to find a balance between controlling the UAC boats and not killing the UAC when used singly or in a pair.

[Bellum Dominum]

Rampage, on 20 May 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

The UAC Jam reduction nodes takes an investment of 16 Skill Nodes to get full benefit. Full benefit equals a Jam chance reduction of less than 1%.

While I understand the intent of the increase of jam chances was to control dakka on Mechs like the KDK-3 and NGR, it really hurt Mechs that use mix builds which include UACs much more.
Anything that can run 3 or more UACs is still viable in the game. Anything that runs only 1 or 2 UACs is pretty much required to avoid double tapping unless it is a desperation move.

I tested a dual UAC5 Hellbringer extensively on PTS after the changes. One or more of my guns was in a jam condition 27% of the time when double tapping all shots. I did the same test after picking up both UAC Jam reduction nodes on the LIVE server since the ST patch. With both nodes equipped my jam chances were almost exactly the same when double tapping every shot.

Please consider either raising the node value to allow around a 2% jam reduction or better yet create a system that gives incremental jam chance increases based on the number of UACs that are equipped.Something like:

1 UAC - 13% Jam chance
2 UAC - 15% Jam chance
3 UAC - 17% Jam chance
4 UAC - 19% Jam chance
etc.

That way boating is discouraged or controlled but mixed builds which depend on UACs for firepower are not unreasonably penalized. With the IS receiving UACs soon as well this would be a good time to revisit the problem.

Another alternative would be to reduce the number of Jam nodes to one and double its effect. I might use it then. I bought them at first, tested them and then did a respec and dropped then because they were not worth the investment at their present value. It cost me some SP to find this out.

Less than 1% eh? 5% each = 10% reduction not .10%. At least that is how it reads for me...
EDIT: I would however say that with the upcoming Rotary AC's coming... UAC's are going to need some adjustment to their jam chance (downward I would say). Of course without having been able to test these new weapons at all so far I'm just hazarding a guess.

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 21 May 2017 - 04:59 AM.

[Slambot]

Haven't noticed much of a difference.

[Cy Mitchell]

Bellum Dominum, on 21 May 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

Less than 1% eh? 5% each = 10% reduction not .10%. At least that is how it reads for me...
EDIT: I would however say that with the upcoming Rotary AC's coming... UAC's are going to need some adjustment to their jam chance (downward I would say). Of course without having been able to test these new weapons at all so far I'm just hazarding a guess.

The Jam reduction is 2.5% per node for a maximum of 5% reduction of the 17% Jam chance. That does not make the new Jam chance 12%. It makes it 16.15%. As I said, I tested it on testing grounds. Adding the nodes resulted in one less jam total out of three test double tapping away 3 tons of UAC ammo. That is 1/3 jam per test. I concluded that the investment was not worth it.

If the Jam chance reduction % was doubled to 5% per node then the Jam reduction would result in a 15.3% Jam chance which might be worth the investment in the Skill Node.

Slambot, on 21 May 2017 - 05:00 AM, said:

Haven't noticed much of a difference.

The Skill tree did not change anything. It added Jam chance reduction nodes. The problem is that investing in them really does not change anything either.

Edited by Rampage, 21 May 2017 - 11:09 AM.

[Taxxian]

I wrote a simulator and the Jam Chance Node is way more effective than a cooldown node, so I will grab them...

[Dee Eight]

During the first PTS in february, the jam chance reduction was 3% per node, so 5 nodes totaled 15%. Applied to a Dragon 5N with a 40% jam chance quirk, the net total of 55% reduction allowed me to go 54 shots without jamming even once. That's slightly abusive so PGI has lowered the total node modifier to 5%.

[Cy Mitchell]

Dee Eight, on 21 May 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

During the first PTS in february, the jam chance reduction was 3% per node, so 5 nodes totaled 15%. Applied to a Dragon 5N with a 40% jam chance quirk, the net total of 55% reduction allowed me to go 54 shots without jamming even once. That's slightly abusive so PGI has lowered the total node modifier to 5%.

Your results were more due to the 40% jam chance reduction of that specific variant which was already reducing a 17% jam chance to about 9%. It just further reduced it to 8%. Unfortunately, most Mechs that can carry UACs are not blessed with quirks that already reduces their jam chances by almost half. Maybe if Mechs with only enough ballistic spots or tonnage available to carry one or two UACs also had 25-40% jam reduction quirks then the 2.5% from the ST would make sense. As it stands, they are a waste and give little or no benefit in the real game.

Taking a Mech with one ballistic slot and great ballistic quirks as a reason for not improving weapon performance on a broad spectrum of Mechs is bad in the same way as taking two over performing Mechs and because of them making changes to a weapon system that limits them but impacts other Mechs that use the same weapon system in lesser numbers even more. Balancing a weapon system with one extreme or the other is not good. Either there needs to be a way of increasing jam chances based on the number of UACs that are boated or all the Mechs than can only carry one or two UACs need to receive some help.

My point is that the ST is not offering a fair trade for the amount of help it offers. The problem is that if you offer the Mechs that need it help with the ST then the Mechs that do not need help benefit even more unless the base is changed.

Edited by Rampage, 21 May 2017 - 05:38 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Taxxian, on 21 May 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

I wrote a simulator and the Jam Chance Node is way more effective than a cooldown node, so I will grab them...

The difference is that cooldown works on every weapon system that you carry. UAC Jam Reduction only works on UACs. My concern is with mixed builds with 1 or 2 UACs. Not only do the UACs benefit from cooldown but so do the lasers or missiles. Thus they are worth more to that type of build.

[Top Leliel]

Sounds pretty negligible if that's the case.

[Bellum Dominum]

Correction, and my bad, just pulled it up again and don't know why but I must have been looking at lbx spread. UAC Jam chance is indeed 2.5% not 5%.

I will say however that for such a small percentage to be tested you'll need to use a higher number than '3tons of ammo'. IE 1000 'trigger pulls' with double tapping and without double tapping as well as both with and without the nodes for a better comparison.

I use them for UAC20s but wouldn't use them for UAC2s. I do think they should be bumped up to 5% however at least or even possibly 7.5% since there is only 2 nodes.

It is additive as well not a total of 5% of current jam reduction chance added which of course is then removed from the jam chance of the weapon to get the total percentage chance per trigger pull that the weapon will jam + whatever X pgi has come up with for double tap if applicable (this weapon has always been troublesome for PGI and I don't really understand why. It was only ever supposed to possibly jam IF you double tapped it IE engaging a dangerous select fire option for the mechanism). At least according to the tooltip on the WHC-C which starts with a 20% UAC jam chance (sigh why did this get reduced so badly?) and with both nodes that becomes 25% again according to the tooltip it is added directly to the base reduction.

Now if they'd do the weapon according to TT then there would be a lot of qq as not only was it only supposed to have the chance to jam on a double tap but if it jammed that meant it was jammed for the rest of the match or until you were able to return to the mechbay and repair it.

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 21 May 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Yeah, in the case of your example with the WHC it would appear as 25% but it is 25% reduction of the 17% so it makes it 13.75% chance of a jam on a double tap. The Mechs that I am using have no jam reduction quirks and therefore are only getting the reduction from the skill tree. After my test, firing 3 tons 3 times and only getting one less jam than my base test without the skill tree nodes, I just decided to respec out of those nodes.

[Bellum Dominum]

Oh yeah I completely agree that to get the 'most out of the tree' you have to pay close attention. IE the largest auto canons get only 1 more shot from the magazine capacity nodes... USELESS imo whereas those same 2 points put into an extra consumable slot for both a UAV and a cool shot for example is much more useful.

Reads convoluted there at the end but you get my meaning I'm sure lol.

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 21 May 2017 - 07:51 PM.

[Legato Bluesummers]

Rampage, on 20 May 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

Please consider either raising the node value to allow around a 2% jam reduction or better yet create a system that gives incremental jam chance increases based on the number of UACs that are equipped.Something like:

1 UAC - 13% Jam chance
2 UAC - 15% Jam chance
3 UAC - 17% Jam chance
4 UAC - 19% Jam chance
etc.

That way boating is discouraged or controlled but mixed builds which depend on UACs for firepower are not unreasonably penalized. With the IS receiving UACs soon as well this would be a good time to revisit the problem.

I personally really like this idea, also I think instead of less jam chance It should be less jam time like up to 15 or 10% total for the nodes.

Edited by Legato Bluesummers, 22 May 2017 - 01:54 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Legato Bluesummers, on 22 May 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

I personally really like this idea, also I think instead of less jam chance It should be less jam time like up to 15 or 10% total for the nodes.

That would help too. Part of the issue is that cooldown for the weapon does not even start until the jam time ends. That does not make sense to me as the weapon would be cooling off any time it is not being fired. If it is jammed then it is not firing and therefore should be dissipating heat and cooling down or recycling. Stacking the jam chance on top of the relatively long cooldown times takes the weapon off line for a long time and if you only have one or two then you have lost a large percentage of your damage output for a long time. Higher Jam reductions would help but it would help boaters more. Jam time reduction would help but again that would help boaters more. Only making the stacking of UAC increase Jam chances would control boating without punishing mixed builds that use UACs.

Maybe mixed ballistic/energy or ballistic/missile are only supposed to use ACs?