25 replies to this topic

[Cato Zilks]

Kanajashi made a video about how he would have energy weapons rebalanced.


In short bring IS and Clan weapon disparities closer together and nerf the extreme range of ER lasers. He also suggested that pulse lasers be reworked as, short burst, DPS lasers. Do watch the video.

Now, I think his first set of ideas are not good.

1) We don't need long range nerfs. Several of our maps are made for this. Polar is soooooo much worse if we have to walk forever and our range is cut. Range is good.

2) We don't need the IS and Clan to have almost-identical weapons. I completely disagree about IS LPL duration times. If you are already getting shot by lasers, it is a bit late to twist away from them: one needs to anticipate the enemy's fire. The issue there is not duration, but battlefield awareness.

But, I think he is right that some stats need adjusting and I think the pulse lasers idea could be fun. I put together a spread sheet that with tabs for: Lore stats, current MWO stats, Kanajashi's proposed changes, and (separately) his pulse laser idea. I went for 1/4 stats for pulses instead of 1/5 (like he suggested) to allow a bit more damage spreading with the lasers. But the times are very short. I also kept a sizable lead for the IS LPL's DMG/Duration while preserving the Clan LPL's advantage for DPS.
https://docs.google....32skeZFDELWEMs/

Edited by Cato Zilks, 21 May 2017 - 05:53 PM.

[Tarogato]

While we're sharing spreadsheets of weapon stat changes... here's mine, with explanations inside:

https://docs.google....t#gid=184658901

[Davegt27]

lets get used to the current state of suck before we start on making the game suck even more

[Kanajashi]

Thanks for watching and sharing the video! The main reason I make this kind of content is to spark conversation about the topic so I like that you have counterpoints.

Cato Zilks, on 21 May 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

1) We don't need long range nerfs. Several of our maps are made for this. Polar is soooooo much worse if we have to walk forever and our range is cut. Range is good.

I can see what you mean, there are maps where you have these long sight lines and want to take advantage of them. However I believe the issue you state about polar is more about the map's design than the available weapons. If the teams spawned 1500m apart instead of the current several kilometers the walking simulator online wouldn't be an issue.The reason I want the lasers brought down in their max range is to open up the 1km+ extreme range to be the domain of just AC2s, Gauss and somewhat ERPPCs. The problem i was wanting to remove was the ease of use for damage at that extreme range. Projectiles require good aiming practices to land that far out where lasers can just be raked back and forth to get some damage with very little skill.

Cato Zilks, on 21 May 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

2) We don't need the IS and Clan to have almost-identical weapons. I completely disagree about IS LPL duration times. If you are already getting shot by lasers, it is a bit late to twist away from them: one needs to anticipate the enemy's fire. The issue there is not duration, but battlefield awareness.

I think the closer we come to parity between the tech bases the better balance will be. I remember back before the clans were introduced and everyone had the same weapons and tech. It was honestly one of the best times for balance in MWO's history. XL engines were an actual choice of weight vs durability, no-one could out range another, alpha strikes were equal. Now we have a tech side that is objectively stronger than the other and is only brought in line with series of quirks on IS chassis and nerfs to clan technologies. We need to balance by first ironing out the wrinkles between the techs then afterwards giving them a distinct flavor.

I can agree with you about the pulse duration, really a pilot should be able to twist away prior to the shot being fired. But if thats the argument why don't we just remove duration all together? make the lasers act like mechwarrior 4 and have front loaded. Then the duration argument goes away. Really the duration of a laser is just another factor when it comes to it's usability. The Clan ERLL is almost unwieldy except for specific situations like Boreal Vault defense missions. The 1.5s duration directly cuts into the weapon's viability as does with the LPL and short duration therefore easier use.

Cato Zilks, on 21 May 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

But, I think he is right that some stats need adjusting and I think the pulse lasers idea could be fun. I put together a spread sheet that with tabs for: Lore stats, current MWO stats, Kanajashi's proposed changes, and (separately) his pulse laser idea. I went for 1/4 stats for pulses instead of 1/5 (like he suggested) to allow a bit more damage spreading with the lasers. But the times are very short. I also kept a sizable lead for the IS LPL's DMG/Duration while preserving the Clan LPL's advantage for DPS.
https://docs.google....32skeZFDELWEMs/

Cool sheets, I liked reading through them. Good discussion!

[Insanity09]

I think if the weapon damage drop off did not lie that wouldn't be a bad thing.

By this I mean that at their very maximum range weapons should be doing next to zero damage, as the graphs suggest. My experience is that they are still doing effective damage at that range.

If the graphs were true, then we could still do something at long range (satisfying the valid polar point), particularly with non-ammo based weapons, but it would make sniping FAR less effective overall.

I'd also suggest that the drop off for AC's and gauss, ammo based weaponry, be not nearly as sharp. They should maintain more damage for longer, but drop off very sharply towards their maximum range. For lasers it makes some sense that they would drop off in a more linear fashion, as the beams attenuate evenly over the distance.

[Tarogato]

Kanajashi, on 21 May 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

I can agree with you about the pulse duration, really a pilot should be able to twist away prior to the shot being fired. But if thats the argument why don't we just remove duration all together? make the lasers act like mechwarrior 4 and have front loaded. Then the duration argument goes away.

Because when you predict a shot being fired and begin the pre-empting torso twist, you are still twisting while the damage is being applied - even if the burn duration is short, the damage still has a chance to spread. Otherwise it all goes to the same component and there's nothing you can do about it but hope that your twisting made them miss outright. Duration-less lasers just become better PPCs.

[Ultimax]

Tarogato, on 21 May 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

While we're sharing spreadsheets of weapon stat changes... here's mine, with explanations inside:

https://docs.google....t#gid=184658901

"LPL
Has always been rather overpowered compared to other IS weapons. Tiny adjustment in the right direction, see how it goes.
"

I think you might have missed a few years where LPLs were trash tier weapons and taking them instead of PPCs would have gotten you laughed at.

The buffs it got, are exactly why it is where it is. It weighs 7 tons and has shorter range then the LLAS, it's supposed to outclass it.

Edited by Ultimax, 22 May 2017 - 01:29 PM.

[Old-dirty B]

Cato Zilks, on 21 May 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

But, I think he is right that some stats need adjusting and I think the pulse lasers idea could be fun. I put together a spread sheet that with tabs for: Lore stats, current MWO stats, Kanajashi's proposed changes, and (separately) his pulse laser idea. I went for 1/4 stats for pulses instead of 1/5 (like he suggested) to allow a bit more damage spreading with the lasers. But the times are very short. I also kept a sizable lead for the IS LPL's DMG/Duration while preserving the Clan LPL's advantage for DPS.
https://docs.google....32skeZFDELWEMs/

The small pulse laser might appear to be a dps weapon for most mechs and builds, its an alpha weapon on the light class. Proposed changes for this specific weapon will ruin one of the few alpha strike weapons on those mechs that have not much weight or room to spare. The machine guns (also heavy / light) already forfill that role (short range dps). Lights and in particular mobile mechs should remain options to build an alpha strike build that doesnt require alot of facetime - not possible without small pulses in more or less its current shape.

[Cato Zilks]

B3R3ND, on 21 May 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

The small pulse laser might appear to be a dps weapon for most mechs and builds, its an alpha weapon on the light class. Proposed changes for this specific weapon will ruin one of the few alpha strike weapons on those mechs that have not much weight or room to spare. The machine guns (also heavy / light) already forfill that role (short range dps). Lights and in particular mobile mechs should remain options to build an alpha strike build that doesnt require alot of facetime - not possible without small pulses in more or less its current shape.

Well, the alpha build would switch to small lasers. Cost a few points on the alpha, but it should help with ttk. Now if spl's have a super short burn time, they may have a low damage strike per shot but it is pretty close to pinpoint. The 8spl FS9-A would do 8 almost-pinpoint damage every half second. It would be wicked powerful.

[justcallme A S H]

Is the video like the FP video where it's a bunch of whinging because said user brought the totally incorrect build for the map?

Or the cause for #cheapsake unification?

[Cato Zilks]

Kanajashi, on 21 May 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

The reason I want the lasers brought down in their max range is to open up the 1km+ extreme range to be the domain of just AC2s, Gauss and somewhat ERPPCs. The problem i was wanting to remove was the ease of use for damage at that extreme range. Projectiles require good aiming practices to land that far out where lasers can just be raked back and forth to get some damage with very little skill.

ERLL does make long rage fighting much easier. But in a Clan vs IS context super long range tends to be IS-ERLL vs C-ERPPC. As you have noted, the CERPPC is flat out a better weapon than its IS counter part (with or without splash damage). I like that I can do damage on poptarting Summoners and Night Gyrs in return for the crap they sling at us. Sure it is possible to hit back with a PPC or Gauss, but we are really taking top players only for that kinda of accurate reaction shot.

It makes for a challenging balance dynamic. Personally, I think both weapons need to run a bit hotter. Clan PPC is still viable at 15 heat (unlike the IS ERPPC). I don't see the coming tech helping this at all. For all the new toys the IS ERPPC is still a crappy heat trade and their mechs will need good ERLL's to compensate.

Kanajashi, on 21 May 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

The 1.5s duration directly cuts into the weapon's viability

Agree 100%. Not entirely sure what to do with that though. Again, the Clan ERPPC is the best +1000m weapon in the game. I am not sure I want to buff CERLL to compete with that them.

Thanks for putting your ideas out there and making videos to make the game better.

justcallme A S H, on 21 May 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:

Is the video like the FP video where it's a bunch of whinging because said user brought the totally incorrect build for the map?

Or the cause for #cheapsake unification?

No, and don't be an ***, ash.

[justcallme A S H]

Not being an donkey, was actually a legit question.


Also cERL - buffed out the ringer. My WHK has gone from 888m to 925m. Totally outraging cERPPC and IS ERL.
Don't nerf the ranges though, that'll break half the maps PGI has made (ruined) lately. I mean, if you nerf reasonable effective range under 1000m for Frozen City is gonna be pointless! It's made for 1000m+ reasonable effective. Duration fixes that anyway, as does ERPPC velocity. Gauss should not be 1000m+, it's current nerfed level is acceptable.

IS ERPPC is still junk. Give it splash like Clan won't fix either as it's still too hot.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 May 2017 - 10:47 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Make IS ERPPC a hitscan weapon.

[Mcgral18]

LPL:
It DOES spread damage
Reaction time is 0.25, straight up HALF what you mentioned (according to the top google result)
Your Dam/duration is also...flawed
Dam/tick is a slightly more accurate measurement, because the cLPL NEVER deals 16 damage in a second, because it only burns for two thirds
1.67 Dam/tick? You can calculate that.


0.9s duration is not needed
That makes it a regular laser, not a Pulse laser
You know what it needs? A SHORTER duration!
With appropriate damage and cooldown changes, to give Pulse lasers an actually different application.
Clam Pulses are especially strange here, since...they're Heavy Lasers in practice. They are high damage, moderate duration.



Range changes? Sure
Damage changes? I guess, but I'll miss cSPLs being amazing. The IS Small family is just so pathetic
cERLL duration reduction? Fine, but you've done something wrong. You made it deal more Dam/tick than the isERLL
Currently, they're almost on par, but this change gives it a 6% advantage (along with the slots, weight, damage)

Only range concern is the ERLL, because it's generally useless until you reach 900+M, where it can win trades against PPCs and Gauss
Remove the range and...well, it would again become a poor choice.
But same/similar Clam and Spheroid ERLL ranges? No issue. The isERLL is at a ton and slot disadvantage, so remember it needs to be superior in certain aspects

Disagree on PPCs, they aren't terribly complicated. There's just very little information listed
VERY MUCH DISAGREE on increasing their PP FLD values
Especially since you kept their cooldowns at 4s...just no.

Buffing the isERPPC? Yes, and isPPC back to ramping min, GH to 3 safe
For the isERPPC, back to 15 heat, 3 KM/s velocity. High cost, VERY easy to use.

cERPPC...either leave or nerf (cooldown, heat). It's a pretty dominant weapon system, but that was pre-skill Tree. I can't imagine that's changed much, however.



As for Heavy Lasers, we already have them in the form of Clam Pulse Lasers
Moderate duration, high damage, but it's the pulses that have the identity issue.



I see you talk about the Pulse Laser change towards the end
Neat idea, but they cannot be strictly all stats blanket /6
That's because facetime

You'd need to cut duration, damage, and heat by 2, but then cut cooldown by 2.5/3
That would increase their DPS, at the cost of facetime.
Strictly keeping their current values, cut ,would...make them pretty terrible brawl weapons. You need to twist damage, not facetank.
Not without a significant DPS increase, at least

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 May 2017 - 11:50 PM.

[kapusta11]

Completely rеtarded take on IS LPL, I'm sorry. "If it lasted for one whole second it would have done 16 damage" yeah, it would, but it lasts .67 sec AND you have to group fire to deal 55 damage with 5 LPLs (35 tons btw) for a total duration of 1.17 (with macro, more without). The damage you do over .67 sec is limited to 33 max.

My MAD IIC laser boat does 68 damage over 1 sec with new skill tree, that's 45.5 actual damage over .67 sec. If it lasted for one whole second it would've done 68 damage, oh wait.

Same story with clan vs IS ERLL, if you do the math 4 group fired cERLLs are just a little bit behind 5 IS ERLLs (2 sec burn vs 1.75, 44 dam vs 45) but they also weight 16 tons instead of 25.


And to think that PGI listened to this guy during ghost energy PTS, it's just bonkers.

Seriously, IS LPL is the only good weapon IS has, and it looks like everyone, from PGI to self proclaimed balance overlords, is dead set on "changing" it either to "DPS" weapon with high heat or just 7 ton, 365m range garbage.

Edited by kapusta11, 22 May 2017 - 12:01 AM.

[Mcgral18]

kapusta11, on 21 May 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

Seriously, IS LPL is the only good weapon IS has, and it looks like everyone, from PGI to self proclaimed balance overlords, is dead set on "changing" it either to "DPS" weapon with high heat or just 7 ton, 365m range garbage.

I think it's a given that PGI will be nerfing it, as sad as that is


We can only hope they buff the isSLs, suffering from their 5 year old doubled heat
Maybe reduce their cooldowns to, you know, match the Clam Small DPS?
It's damn near 50%, for the same items! AT LESSER RANGE!

[Cato Zilks]

So keep in mind that weapons are getting overhauled with the new weapons coming in. IS is gonna have a lot of new PPC options and Clans are getting heavy lasers. AS has been pointed out, PGI basically made Pulse lasers what heavy lasers are supposed to be. Now that heavy lasers are coming, pulses are gonna get changed.

So yes, this seems the right time to re work what pulse lasers are and how they work. The DPS solution that Kanajashi proposed seems feasible. Right now, if you fired 5 LPLs on your Battlemaster in two groups it would take 3.92 seconds to unload then cooldown from the 55 damage (with the amount of spread that happens in two sets of .67 seconds (1.34)). You would also have 2.6 seconds of doing no damage output within that time frame.

On my slapped together model you would do 60 damage with only .2 sec worth of spread per shot, but doing less damage in each burst. You would also only have .6 seconds of not doing damage at any given time. Personally I think these new models should not have ghost heat (that would allow .8 seconds of time between shots). Even with a 7 lpl banshee, we would only be looking at an alpha of 21 (well under the ~30 cap they try to keep).

Edited by Cato Zilks, 22 May 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Cato Zilks, on 22 May 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

So keep in mind that weapons are getting overhauled with the new weapons coming in. IS is gonna have a lot of new PPC options and Clans are getting heavy lasers. AS has been pointed out, PGI basically made Pulse lasers what heavy lasers are supposed to be. Now that heavy lasers are coming, pulses are gonna get changed.

So yes, this seems the right time to re work what pulse lasers are and how they work. The DPS solution that Kanajashi proposed seems feasible. Right now, if you fired 5 LPLs on your Battlemaster in two groups it would take 3.92 seconds to unload then cooldown from the 55 damage (with the amount of spread that happens in two sets of .67 seconds (1.34)). You would also have 2.6 seconds of doing no damage output within that time frame.

On my slapped together model you would do 60 damage with only .2 sec worth of spread per shot, but doing less damage in each burst. You would also only have .6 seconds of not doing damage at any given time. Personally I think these new models should not have ghost heat (that would allow .8 seconds of time between shots). Even with a 7 lpl banshee, we would only be looking at an alpha of 21 (well under the ~30 cap they try to keep).

Does that mean since UACs have currently what RACs main advantage was when it was introduced (Unjamming during combat) that UACs are going to be Jammed forever (technically a 5 min Technician check in a Mech Gantry or suffer Field Condition penalties to the roll) like they are supposed to??? Sounds like good logic to me... the fact that UACs have been brokenly powerful and one of the myriad of failures that PGI has done to make the Tech imbalance as bad as it has been since their introduction (Clans get overall benefit since they have all 4 classes while IS only had 1.)

Edited by KekistanWillRiseAgain, 22 May 2017 - 11:40 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

B3R3ND, on 21 May 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

The small pulse laser .... its an alpha weapon on the light class.

It is, and it isn't. Generally you are getting quite a few shots off and then running away. Not that you don't always use them once and run, but the burst DPS would help using them to catch someone off guard. That said, hopefully this would mean that normal small lasers would be buffed to not be worthless for the tonnage with SPLs being changed.

[Grus]

IS ok! Nerf IS!