34 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Funny, the only armor quirks the BLR has are on its arms, and they are not present on the 2C.

As for being a pocket assault, I guess that's what most IS heavies are, too, then? Save those special ones gifted with 8x energy and big engine caps. That, or fat Mediums...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 25 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

The NTG is really a pocket assault more than an actual heavy mech in terms of how it plays.

While this is true, the MAD-IIC is the Clan's answer to the BLR in all but ERLL fights (and the WHK-C is suitable for those types of engagements on some of the maps).

Gyrok, on 25 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

EDIT: Besides, the BLR is still more agile than both despite having 10 tons advantage and absurdly strong armor quirks.

Being agile doesn't save the BLR, it is definitely strong, but I still prefer the MAD-IIC over it for a majority of engagements.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 May 2017 - 12:50 PM.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 May 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Funny, the only armor quirks the BLR has are on its arms, and they are not present on the 2C.

As for being a pocket assault, I guess that's what most IS heavies are, too, then? Save those special ones gifted with 8x energy and big engine caps. That, or fat Mediums...

The BLR-2C has monster structure quirks...29 CT for sure...

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 May 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

While this is true, the MAD-IIC is the Clan's answer to the BLR in all but ERLL fights (and the WHK-C is suitable for those types of engagements on some of the maps).


Being agile doesn't save the BLR, it is definitely strong, but I still prefer the MAD-IIC over it for a majority of engagements.

The WHK cannot peek nearly as well...and lacks the structure quirks and mobility.

The MAD-IIC is a clan's poor man's BLR.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

The BLR-2C has monster structure quirks...29 CT for sure...

It's not the CT you should be aiming for.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

It's not the CT you should be aiming for.

Sure, the 19 each on the ST is not much better...and since it needs zero mobility quirks, you know every one of them is running +28% structure and +10% armor as well.

That makes a ST take 147 damage to destroy. That mech can do 165 damage in the time it takes to destroy a ST, assuming you are capable of doing a 50 pt alpha 3 times without overheating.

Seriously...?

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 May 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Funny, the only armor quirks the BLR has are on its arms, and they are not present on the 2C.

As for being a pocket assault, I guess that's what most IS heavies are, too, then? Save those special ones gifted with 8x energy and big engine caps. That, or fat Mediums...

Moving at 80-84 kph with a combination of LPLs/MLs, or 75+ with Gauss + energy and mobility like a clan medium is hardly a pocket assault.

Overall, clan mechs feel plodding right now, and IS mechs feel like ballerinas by comparison with less speed and less engine. The more I play, the more I feel like I may be gone for good this time. Civil war tech be damned, clans are just not in a good place right now.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

Sure, the 19 each on the ST is not much better...and since it needs zero mobility quirks, you know every one of them is running +28% structure and +10% armor as well.

That makes a ST take 147 damage to destroy. That mech can do 165 damage in the time it takes to destroy a ST, assuming you are capable of doing a 50 pt alpha 3 times without overheating.

Seriously...?

Yes, extra structure for a 'Mech that cannot spread damage worth a damn. It takes 1.17 seconds to get out a full 5xLPL salvo without wrecking your heat curve, and nobody worthwhile is going to just sit there and let you maul him. It's a poke fest. If you've got a full-engage scenario, the match-up is already over for a whole host of reasons, none of which have anything to do with the 'Mech's inherent qualities in this case.

Also, since it doesn't really need the structure quirks due to its dramatically superior geo, you know every MAD-IIC is running shortened burn durations and will absolutely destroy that XL Battlemaster in a front push.

...

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Yes, extra structure for a 'Mech that cannot spread damage worth a damn. It takes 1.17 seconds to get out a full 5xLPL salvo without wrecking your heat curve, and nobody worthwhile is going to just sit there and let you maul him. It's a poke fest. If you've got a full-engage scenario, the match-up is already over for a whole host of reasons, none of which have anything to do with the 'Mech's inherent qualities in this case.

Also, since it doesn't really need the structure quirks due to its dramatically superior geo, you know every MAD-IIC is running shortened burn durations and will absolutely destroy that XL Battlemaster in a front push.

...

The BLR has godly shield arms, and twists damage relatively well...especially compared to the MAD-IIC. The MAD-IIC has stalker sized STs by comparison.

Not saying the MAD-IIC is bad, but the BLR is T0 right now, and the MAD-IIC is T1.

[Luminis]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

The MAD-IIC is a clan's poor man's BLR.

You say about the BLR what you want, but my MAD-IIC ain't no poor man's anything.

Gyrok, on 26 May 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

That makes a ST take 147 damage to destroy. That mech can do 165 damage in the time it takes to destroy a ST, assuming you are capable of doing a 50 pt alpha 3 times without overheating.

I'll have to pop one of the two Cool Shots I typically field, but that way, my MAD-IIC can dump 216 damage into some poor soul within three weapon cycles. And in the case of the BLR, it doesn't even matter which torso I pop.

Just saying. Big numbers don't mean all that much by themselves, y'know?

[DrSaphron]

The engine desynch was a bad plan overall, it didn't make the crappier mechs better instead it made the good mechs crappier and on top of that they drop the new skill tree on us all at once, locking otherwise staple skills behind the useless garbage that nobody ever took in the first place. When I got my first Timmy I found it difficult to play, borderline unplayable, HOWEVER once it was mastered it felt like someone had actually turned the stinking thing on, but now with the skill tree AND engine desynch it's more or less right back where it was before, too hot, too slow, under gunned, and not enough available tonnage or slots to really be effective. I say keep the skill tree, loose the nega-quirks, and give us back the bonuses for taking big dumb engines!

Also, if you think the Timmy has issues just imagine how I feel about my poor Linebackers with their locked 390XL!

Edited by DrSaphron, 26 May 2017 - 10:18 PM.

[Davegt27]

OP is violating the thu shalt not speak of the TW rule

unless you want to see endless posts telling you how great it is and to stfu

Edited by Davegt27, 04 June 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

The WHK cannot peek nearly as well...and lacks the structure quirks and mobility.

The MAD-IIC is a clan's poor man's BLR.

You clearly don't know what you are talking​ about, Yeonne is correct about the laser vomit MAD-IIC vs the 5 lpl BLR, in a push the MAD-IIC can easily open a side torso in the time it takes for it to get its alpha off and its arms are about as good at shielding as the MAD-IIC, in fact I lose my arms MORE in the MAD-IIC for some reason. The only thing the 5 lpl BLR can do better is poke, and poking at mid range is hard to do in a meta that encourages mid-short pushes.

MAD-IIC > BLR-2C

You are right about the WHK (as far as poking, structure only makes it even with the cXL and the agility is close as far as feel goes) but on certain maps, for example on frozen, high mounts don't matter like they do on Polar so a WHK can actually be better because of its much better damage output. Plexus is another map you can get away with the WHK. The BLR is not king of aasaults like you seem to think, I think I would know given I'm the one that sciences assaults (among other mechs) for my team.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 May 2017 - 11:13 PM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

You clearly don't know what you are talking​ about, Yeonne is correct about the laser vomit MAD-IIC vs the 5 lpl BLR, in a push the MAD-IIC can easily open a side torso in the time it takes for it to get its alpha off and its arms are about as good at shielding as the MAD-IIC, in fact I lose my arms MORE in the MAD-IIC for some reason. The only thing the 5 lpl BLR can do better is poke, and poking at mid range is hard to do in a meta that encourages mid-short pushes.

MAD-IIC > BLR-2C

You are right about the WHK (as far as poking, structure only makes it even with the cXL and the agility is close as far as feel goes) but on certain maps, for example on frozen, high mounts don't matter like they do on Polar so a WHK can actually be better because of its much better damage output. Plexus is another map you can get away with the WHK. The BLR is not king of aasaults like you seem to think, I think I would know given I'm the one that sciences assaults (among other mechs) for my team.

You *HAVE* to take agility on ANY clan mech...period. So many IS mechs do not even need the mobility tree...

Not only that, but the WHK has hitbox fail since ever, and it loses STs like most people lose a random sock on laundry day.

You know...I am not doubting your ability to science all this stuff Quick; however, I will point out that it took most of the top tier comp community to realize that the IS was mega OP during the ERLL BLR period. I said it all along then, and it took the silkken making a video about it to get people to pay attention.

Are months going to go by before someone actually puts theorycraft into actual use and tests this stuff out to see how it pans out?

I mean, the BLR-1G can, once again, get more than 25% range on their energy weapons, meaning the IS ERLL can out range clans handily, with far better duration than CERLL mechs. 25% was a problem back then, how does 30% range sound now with -15% duration?

If the IS is stronger at long range, stronger at mid range, and stronger in brawl range, where are clans supposed to have an advantage?

There are no clan assaults capable of substantially leading a push like the uber structure buffed IS assaults. There are some poking mechs, but you lose out to IS poking mechs. There are some brawl mechs, but IS mechs dance around them like ballerinas with equal payloads.

Clans have straight line speed with no structure buffs and crap agility. That just is not enough these days.

FW balance is rekt right now...and it will carry over. Just wait and see, we will again see that clan mechs are taken to bolster IS pushes, because clans cannot do it themselves, and cannot play range more effectively.

I think balance between factions in general is probably the worst it has been since the last time the IS was absurdly OP. Disagree all you want, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[MischiefSC]

WHK C is an insane 4xerppc boat, able to shoot its 4 erppcs a total of 12 times, 3 sets of 2x2, consecutively before heat cap. Its puking up 120 direct damage and another 60 points of splatter damage. Enough to kill any IS ERLL boat. You can always twisting off lasers. Alpine, Frozen, Grim Plexus, even Tourmaline with some more careful heat management the WHK is a better long range mech.

MAD IIC laservomit also destroys the BLR in the sub-600m engagement. I'm going to put 75 pts in a st on the first exchange and then 61 pts in the second - because he's going to be twisted away, I'm going to burn 2 lasers into his shoulder so he thinks I've wasted my trade and when he turns back he's getting 5 cermls and 2lpls in the soft torso. That kills him. 2 trades. I do it so much in FW I actually had to change the fire groups on all my mechs to make group 3 my "feint" shot because it's habit at this point given I run that IIC almost every match.

The only people I can't beat in the MAD IIC vs a BLR are people who I couldn't beat in any circumstance. I'm shooting more than 55 damage in the same timeframe as their max 55, often almost 50% more damage at almost the same heat levels. Sure they have more structure but it doesn't matter - 2 alphas kills them the same if their ST is 77 pts or 100 pts, because I'm shooting 75 and 61. LPL 3x2 burn is 1.12, if their timing is superhuman perfect. More likely it's 1.5 or so. My CT doesn't die at 110 so if my aim doesn't suck I win. Which I almost always do in those exchanges.

Because they die on ST loss and I don't they have to twist away of they lose. So I'm aiming and ready. The exchange favors me in every way.

6x erll? Again, at 650m or closer I'm winning that trade the same way for the same reasons. Beyond 650m I'm in cover or in a different mech. Or are we saying that on Frozen City the 6erll build on the edge of the map on the frozen lake vs the MAD IIC lpl/cerml build the BLR wins? I'll admit that in that stupid circumstance it's true. I'm sure I van make am arbitrary environment where my stock Urbie beats an Atlas.

MAD IIC beats the BLR consistently in any similar environment. At long range the WHK or Gyr does depending on map. Cuz cee peeps.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

WHK C is an insane 4xerppc boat, able to shoot its 4 erppcs a total of 12 times, 3 sets of 2x2, consecutively before heat cap. Its puking up 120 direct damage and another 60 points of splatter damage. Enough to kill any IS ERLL boat. You can always twisting off lasers. Alpine, Frozen, Grim Plexus, even Tourmaline with some more careful heat management the WHK is a better long range mech.

MAD IIC laservomit also destroys the BLR in the sub-600m engagement. I'm going to put 75 pts in a st on the first exchange and then 61 pts in the second - because he's going to be twisted away, I'm going to burn 2 lasers into his shoulder so he thinks I've wasted my trade and when he turns back he's getting 5 cermls and 2lpls in the soft torso. That kills him. 2 trades. I do it so much in FW I actually had to change the fire groups on all my mechs to make group 3 my "feint" shot because it's habit at this point given I run that IIC almost every match.

The only people I can't beat in the MAD IIC vs a BLR are people who I couldn't beat in any circumstance. I'm shooting more than 55 damage in the same timeframe as their max 55, often almost 50% more damage at almost the same heat levels. Sure they have more structure but it doesn't matter - 2 alphas kills them the same if their ST is 77 pts or 100 pts, because I'm shooting 75 and 61. LPL 3x2 burn is 1.12, if their timing is superhuman perfect. More likely it's 1.5 or so. My CT doesn't die at 110 so if my aim doesn't suck I win. Which I almost always do in those exchanges.

Because they die on ST loss and I don't they have to twist away of they lose. So I'm aiming and ready. The exchange favors me in every way.

6x erll? Again, at 650m or closer I'm winning that trade the same way for the same reasons. Beyond 650m I'm in cover or in a different mech. Or are we saying that on Frozen City the 6erll build on the edge of the map on the frozen lake vs the MAD IIC lpl/cerml build the BLR wins? I'll admit that in that stupid circumstance it's true. I'm sure I van make am arbitrary environment where my stock Urbie beats an Atlas.

MAD IIC beats the BLR consistently in any similar environment. At long range the WHK or Gyr does depending on map. Cuz cee peeps.

Hill peeking, the BLR destroys both those mechs...period.