7 replies to this topic

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Hello: I haven't found a clear answer on this: Do skill tree bonuses (structure, armor, velocity, cool down, etc.) work on quirked values or do they add to quirk percentages. So for example with a base structure of 100 and structure quirk of 10%, plus 10% skill bonus to structure is the result?:

100 + 10 + 10 equals 120
or
100 + 10 equals 110, then 110 x plus 10% (11) equals 121

I have seen posts assuming that quirks impact the marginal benefit of a skill tree node so people are thinking it is the second option. For example, if you have structure quirks not armor quirks you should prefer structure skill nodes, although they are baseline neutral as to hit point benefits. The mechbay does not distinguish between quirks and skill bonuses which suggests that they are calculated together first and then added to baselines.

I don't have extra skill points for experimentation (all my modules were refunded as C-bills only since I started playing in February this year -- not the better option by the way), so I am hoping someone has run some calculations on heavily quirked mechs and found a clear answer.

Thanks!

[Jingseng]

Interesting.... just going to chime in to note:

1) structure values are not shown, so.... guess work.

2) my instinct is that real number values from quirks (such as +11 {points} of structure) are added to the base value (since the quirk always says "+ base whatever" - btw, structure and armor quirks are always real amounts, and never a percentage) and then the percentage values from the tree apply (option 2 in your example above).

I HAVE NO PROOF OF THAT HOWEVER.

3) Does it really matter? In your own examples, using very generous numbers from what must be an assualt mech, the difference is one measly point. I mean, even knowing it is one way or the other... I can't see that it makes a difference in determining your choice, since the lion's share of the effect is the same.

4) where quirks provide a percentage increase (velocity +20%, ER LL heat gen -5%, basically any weapon quirk where the numerical values are actually large enough for percentages to make a meaningful difference), my instinct is that the percentage stack additively (they are added together and then applied, not applied sequentially/compounded). That is, Situation one of your example.

Edit: I HAVE NO PROOF OF THIS EITHER, BUT COULD PROBABLY GET IT IF I WEREN'T TIRED AND IT IS 1130PM

But worth noting, you can set (equip/unequip) nodes WITHOUT saving changes, AND go back into mech loadout (even into select mech) to take a look at how values change (range, velocity, ammo, Yaw, pitch, etc.) according to what is set... kinda like you can mess around with a mech, but the build doesn't actually change until you save those changes. So you can find out for yourself.

Edited by Jingseng, 23 May 2017 - 07:33 AM.

[Jingseng]

jesus, i don't even remember typing guess work, and it is like, the second thing I wrote. time to sleep lol GL

[Koniving]

DeloresAbernathy, on 23 May 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

Hello: I haven't found a clear answer on this: Do skill tree bonuses (structure, armor, velocity, cool down, etc.) work on quirked values or do they add to quirk percentages. So for example with a base structure of 100 and structure quirk of 10%, plus 10% skill bonus to structure is the result?:

100 + 10 + 10 equals 120
or
100 + 10 equals 110, then 110 x plus 10% (11) equals 121

I have seen posts assuming that quirks impact the marginal benefit of a skill tree node so people are thinking it is the second option. For example, if you have structure quirks not armor quirks you should prefer structure skill nodes, although they are baseline neutral as to hit point benefits. The mechbay does not distinguish between quirks and skill bonuses which suggests that they are calculated together first and then added to baselines.

I don't have extra skill points for experimentation (all my modules were refunded as C-bills only since I started playing in February this year -- not the better option by the way), so I am hoping someone has run some calculations on heavily quirked mechs and found a clear answer.

Thanks!

This has been a question ages ago with the old skill tree and quirks.

So you know, percentages do not stack on percentages as percentages of percentages of base value.

Instead, percentages are additive.

This:

10% better this and 20% better this is 10+20=30% + X = X+30%

OR

10% + 20% = 10 + 20 = 30%.

Base Value of 100 + 30% = 130.

NOT this:
10% better and 20% better being X+10%=Y+20%=Z.
OR
Base value 100 + 10% = 110 + 20% = 132


(X is base value.)

Edited by Koniving, 23 May 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Jingseng, on 23 May 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Interesting.... just going to chime in to note:

1) structure values are not shown, so.... guess work.

2) my instinct is that real number values from quirks (such as +11 {points} of structure) are added to the base value (since the quirk always says "+ base whatever" - btw, structure and armor quirks are always real amounts, and never a percentage) and then the percentage values from the tree apply (option 2 in your example above).

I HAVE NO PROOF OF THAT HOWEVER.

3) Does it really matter? In your own examples, using very generous numbers from what must be an assualt mech, the difference is one measly point. I mean, even knowing it is one way or the other... I can't see that it makes a difference in determining your choice, since the lion's share of the effect is the same.

4) where quirks provide a percentage increase (velocity +20%, ER LL heat gen -5%, basically any weapon quirk where the numerical values are actually large enough for percentages to make a meaningful difference), my instinct is that the percentage stack additively (they are added together and then applied, not applied sequentially/compounded). That is, Situation one of your example.

Edit: I HAVE NO PROOF OF THIS EITHER, BUT COULD PROBABLY GET IT IF I WEREN'T TIRED AND IT IS 1130PM

But worth noting, you can set (equip/unequip) nodes WITHOUT saving changes, AND go back into mech loadout (even into select mech) to take a look at how values change (range, velocity, ammo, Yaw, pitch, etc.) according to what is set... kinda like you can mess around with a mech, but the build doesn't actually change until you save those changes. So you can find out for yourself.

My error: I did not realize but should have that structure and armor quirks are not percentages. As to structure quirks they definitely go into a single number that appears in the mechlab (in white) for each component. So that would presumably be the bad number for the skill teee bonus. But the armor is a little more ambiguous because the quirk armor is (I think) indicated separately from bad armor as a minimum armor number in green. Skill armor bonus is then added to that based on actual armor numbers (possibly not counting quirk armor??). At least I think that's how it works ... I'll check it out as was suggested without saving when I go online and report back.

Sounds like the issue for percentage quirks is settled that the percentages of quirks and skills add together and then are applied to the see value. I'll confirm that too with the non-saved method.

Thanks!

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Most skill nodes add their percent/amount to nominal(stock) value.

But structure and armor don't. Armor and stucture quirks are added to base value, and this is used with skill nodes. So suppose a mech has stock sturcture of 50 units somewhere, and qurirk bonus of 12. With 10% stucture nodes it's total is 68(.2) (according to developer post the server uses more detailed values than what's actually shown in client)


And, you can see the structure in mechlab. It will just show the whole amount, not as in armor, whole amount plus a note on the side in green showing the bonus amount.

Notice, you can change away from the "skills" view into loadout view, without saving the changes. You can then compare the effect of taking any nodes. You have to use your memory though to remember the value you are comparing into.

[Jingseng]

mwo why you eat my posssssssst

nompost.

basically agreeing with teer =p

Also noting, structure value appears in mechlab Loadout view, squished inbetween "Armor" above and "equipped" below. I never paid attention to it I guess (esp. as there was previously no way to affect this value anyway).

Also as stated, you can switch to other views like load out or select mech (to hover over for the pop up) without committing to any changes, to see the numerical effect. You can also pop up the ...pop-up.... in load out view. But I hate the mech lab bug where the mouse over tool tips on the paper doll persist if you don't get rid of them.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Jingseng, on 23 May 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Also noting, structure value appears in mechlab Loadout view, squished inbetween "Armor" above and "equipped" below. I never paid attention to it I guess (esp. as there was previously no way to affect this value anyway).

The amount of stucture was not previously displayed, unlike armor and bonus armor was.