159 replies to this topic

[I L L]

Piggybacking on the Yay or Nay thread regarding skill tree I'm curious to know what people think of this change.

Personally I'm very strongly against it and see it as illogical and completely unnecessary. I cannot possibly see how it can be justified. What exactly is it that turns the torso if not the engine?

[Formosa The God]

im not sure yet, some of my mechs feel so sluggish than before, but thats everyone right now, others dont seem to have been affected so much, my heavies for example dont seem to have been hit too hard, but my lights really do seem to have been affected, i tend to use slow mechs anyway.

[DoctorDetroit]

Force = mass x acceleration, thus acceleration = Force/mass
Increased fusion engine size = increased force
Increased Force with the same mass means increased acceleration.

What moves a mech is fictional "myomer fibers" powered by fusion engines.
If a larger engine increases the speed these fibers can contract, then all movements would be increased!

Thus desync is ridiculous.

LOGIC!

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 18 May 2017 - 12:27 PM.

[I L L]

DoctorDetroit, on 18 May 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Force = mass x acceleration, thus acceleration = Force/mass
Increased fusion engine size = increased force
Increased Force with the same mass means increased acceleration.

What moves a mech is fictional "myomer fibers" powered by fusion engines.
If a larger engine increases the speed these fibers can contract, then all movements would be increased!

Thus desync is ridiculous.

LOGIC!

All of this.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I'm liking it. Because heavies and assaults wont have the snap swivelling torsos anymore, Mediums will become more widely used, rather than the heavy class that was previously the gold standard.

Plus, the above analogy about myomer fibers is all well and good, but after a certain point you cant put more power through something or it will snap or burn out. An executioner was built for that better power to mass ratio, a timberwolf wasn't. Or something. Point is logic doesn't fail unless you just dislike it and declare that it fails.

[I L L]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 May 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Point is logic doesn't fail unless you just dislike it and declare that it fails.

... or when it defies physics and what was written into Battletech.

[DoctorDetroit]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 May 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

I'm liking it. Because heavies and assaults wont have the snap swivelling torsos anymore, Mediums will become more widely used, rather than the heavy class that was previously the gold standard.

Plus, the above analogy about myomer fibers is all well and good, but after a certain point you cant put more power through something or it will snap or burn out. An executioner was built for that better power to mass ratio, a timberwolf wasn't. Or something. Point is logic doesn't fail unless you just dislike it and declare that it fails.

Then how does increased fusion engine size directly increase a mechs top speed..

Ha got you! Increased engine size either increases movement speeds or it doesn't, can't have two different systems.

Problem is the devs think mechs are like tanks and associated torso movement with that of a tank's turret rotation.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 18 May 2017 - 12:35 PM.

[Dino Might]

DoctorDetroit, on 18 May 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Force = mass x acceleration, thus acceleration = Force/mass
Increased fusion engine size = increased force
Increased Force with the same mass means increased acceleration.

What moves a mech is fictional "myomer fibers" powered by fusion engines.
If a larger engine increases the speed these fibers can contract, then all movements would be increased!

Thus desync is ridiculous.

LOGIC!

Myomer is supposed to work as artificial muscle.

Your muscles don't contract "faster" or "stronger" with more current. The strength of the contraction is based on the number of fibers actuated. Your mech has a set amount of myomer fibers. Whether you up-engine it or not, so long as the engine can provide current to all the fibers, it will generate a fixed amount of force.

NOW, here's where the lore as well as the application are problematic. Higher engine rating means increased speed, so higher engine rating must also mean additional myomer. They never bother explaining that. So, more myomer and you should be able to move faster. We could say that additional myomer bundles are only able to be used in sufficient quantity in the leg actuators, so that higher engine means more top speed but does not translate to higher twist rates.

Is that sufficient?

[Fox the Apprentice]

not sure how I feel about it.

[WarHippy]

Its a big nay from me. I do not like how sluggish this game has become over the years and this only made it worse.

[I L L]

Dino Might, on 18 May 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Myomer is supposed to work as artificial muscle.

Your muscles don't contract "faster" or "stronger" with more current. The strength of the contraction is based on the number of fibers actuated. Your mech has a set amount of myomer fibers. Whether you up-engine it or not, so long as the engine can provide current to all the fibers, it will generate a fixed amount of force.

NOW, here's where the lore as well as the application are problematic. Higher engine rating means increased speed, so higher engine rating must also mean additional myomer. They never bother explaining that. So, more myomer and you should be able to move faster. We could say that additional myomer bundles are only able to be used in sufficient quantity in the leg actuators, so that higher engine means more top speed but does not translate to higher twist rates.

Is that sufficient?

No it is not sufficient. Your explanation is well thought out, but is still illogical. "We could say"... when did PGI offer this explanation? If this is the explanation, why is it only now happening 5 years into game play and for the first time in the history of Battletech? Why would anyone building a machine limits it's mobility in this way? In theory, your idea works but it is still illogical.

[DoctorDetroit]

Dino Might, on 18 May 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Myomer is supposed to work as artificial muscle.

Your muscles don't contract "faster" or "stronger" with more current. The strength of the contraction is based on the number of fibers actuated. Your mech has a set amount of myomer fibers. Whether you up-engine it or not, so long as the engine can provide current to all the fibers, it will generate a fixed amount of force.

NOW, here's where the lore as well as the application are problematic. Higher engine rating means increased speed, so higher engine rating must also mean additional myomer. They never bother explaining that. So, more myomer and you should be able to move faster. We could say that additional myomer bundles are only able to be used in sufficient quantity in the leg actuators, so that higher engine means more top speed but does not translate to higher twist rates.

Is that sufficient?

YA increased engine size increases force of contraction, thus the increased acceleration of ALL movements involving the same mass.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 18 May 2017 - 12:39 PM.

[WarHippy]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 May 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

I'm liking it. Because heavies and assaults wont have the snap swivelling torsos anymore, Mediums will become more widely used, rather than the heavy class that was previously the gold standard.

Plus, the above analogy about myomer fibers is all well and good, but after a certain point you cant put more power through something or it will snap or burn out. An executioner was built for that better power to mass ratio, a timberwolf wasn't. Or something. Point is logic doesn't fail unless you just dislike it and declare that it fails.

The Timber Wolf and Executioner has a fixed engine so one would assume that the max speed for everything was all within designed parameters. For mechs that can swap engines perhaps the reason you are limited in engine rating options is because going beyond the max engine rating is what would cause things to snap or burn out?

Either way it is silly for real world examples to be used for either side in a discussion of Battletech/Mechwarrior. Personally, I prefer my mechs to be a little more mobile.

[Destructicus]

It was something that we've been asking for for awhile but PGI found a way to screw it up the same way they screwed up quirks

They tried using it as a way to balance IS vs Clan when it should have been used to balance weight classes.

[naterist]

Im liking it. There are several ways to get speedtweak, and depending on what you want and how you go down the tree, those filler nodes can be pretty useful. For mechs that were overperformers before, upping agility and mech ops brings them back to about were they were, leaving few nodes for surpassing were they were. Mechs with basestat (quirks) enhancements, specing to its role can make it excel in specific situations, were that mech was all around "meh" before. So im liking the combination of the two. They work pretty well together, but on their own the 2 systems, desync and skilltree, woulda floundered. Together they work well. You just have to accept that the firepower tree is not the place to start.

[Summon3r]

DoctorDetroit, on 18 May 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Force = mass x acceleration, thus acceleration = Force/mass
Increased fusion engine size = increased force
Increased Force with the same mass means increased acceleration.

What moves a mech is fictional "myomer fibers" powered by fusion engines.
If a larger engine increases the speed these fibers can contract, then all movements would be increased!

Thus desync is ridiculous.

LOGIC!

lol and there you answered yourself...... no one should forget who were dealing with here, especially if Paul had anything to do with this.

[Vonbach]

No a million times no. It completely kills assaults and badly hurts heavies.
Not everyone wants to play mediums.

[Gamuray]

PSA. You do still get better acceleration/deceleration from larger engines. The devs have stated as such. Apparently your mech will keep the same time from 0kph to max kph, and as such you gain acceleration/deceleration. What they removed was additional boosts past that. So no, the desync is not completely illogical. And by the way, no, a better engine won't give your vehicle better turning either. Turning radius and how fast you can do so depends on mechanical structure and stability.

The desync is not foobar. It's not completely desyncing acceleration/deceleration. Pay a bit more attention to the devs description of what they're doing next time.

My opinion? Given that you do get a slight boost to acceleration/deceleration in proportion to your increased max speed, I think it's really good. Many mechs with smaller engine caps have been held as subpar because larger engines have provided so much of a benefit compared to more free tonnage. Especially when coupled with space for more heat sinks for lasers, the (often) lighter weapon class. This is PART of the process in making the "options" of this game more legitimate choices.

Yay.

Edited by Gamuray, 18 May 2017 - 12:57 PM.

[Tripzter]

DoctorDetroit, on 18 May 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Force = mass x acceleration, thus acceleration = Force/mass
Increased fusion engine size = increased force
Increased Force with the same mass means increased acceleration.

What moves a mech is fictional "myomer fibers" powered by fusion engines.
If a larger engine increases the speed these fibers can contract, then all movements would be increased!

Thus desync is ridiculous.

LOGIC!

Counter argument
It could also be made where the torso is hydraulic like most tanks were back in the day and teh pump takes x amount of hp to turn regardless of the engine size.

You can throw in a 200hp engine in a tank and the turret would turn at the same rate as before since the pump turns at a fixed rpm. Just there would be less available for acceleration after the pump takes its run.

Another more common example.. car accessories such as the air conditioning pump and power steering pump. Most cars that offer multiple engines run the same size AC pump. Same with the same size power steering pump.

logic back at ya

[Trev Firestorm]

Undecided leaning towards yay, haven't gone through a large enough range of mechs yet to be sure.