30 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

IMHO, I would prefer a system where there is a negligible, but uniformly random, chance to jam that increases with heat. I like that small gambling element, but tying it to heat gives you some measure of control both as a player and a developer.

The problem with tying it to heat means that you're discouraging people from using UACs as a backup weapon paired with hot-running energy weapons.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 26 May 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

The problem with tying it to heat means that you're discouraging people from using UACs as a backup weapon paired with hot-running energy weapons.

UACs are never the back-up weapon. They command too many resources to be anything but a primary. And no, not really. It depends entirely on how dramatically you choose to scale that probability in both quality and quantity.

[Trev Firestorm]

The6thMessenger, on 26 May 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

Cumulative -5% UAC jam chance isn't really that great. Sometimes it's trivial putting two points to it at all.

But what if it's -5% UAC Jam Duration? 12s Jam Duration? Now 11.4s.

If it needs buff, maybe +5% Jam Duration per node instead?

Thank you, that's what I've been saying!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

UACs are never the back-up weapon. They command too many resources to be anything but a primary. And no, not really. It depends entirely on how dramatically you choose to scale that probability in both quality and quantity.

What about UAC5/PPC mix that we used to see? Not that UAC5s were backup in that setup but they definitely combined with a high heat weapon.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

UACs are never the back-up weapon. They command too many resources to be anything but a primary. And no, not really. It depends entirely on how dramatically you choose to scale that probability in both quality and quantity.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

What about UAC5/PPC mix that we used to see? Not that UAC5s were backup in that setup but they definitely combined with a high heat weapon.

I guess I worded my post poorly there...Quickie has the right idea of what I was trying to say. Another example would be the classic 4 ERML + 2 UAC/5 Loki. Years ago I used to have a 2 LL + 2 UAC/5 Victor, back when that mech was the master race of MWO. Etc.

The moral of the story is that it would seem logical to combine low heat and high heat weapons together for a synergy combo, but giving heat-based penalties to normally low-heat weapons greatly reduces the synergy you could have and pushes more people towards the dreaded boating boogeyman, causing more grognards to complain about boating on the forums...

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

What about UAC5/PPC mix that we used to see? Not that UAC5s were backup in that setup but they definitely combined with a high heat weapon.

When you engineer your curve, you do it in such a way that you can still run that build and get an adequate amount of kick out of it.

The mechanic is not there to make it impossible to run hot UAC builds. The mechanic is there to force a desired behavior on the players when they know the ramifications of firing in Ultra mode while hot. I can engineer my curve to allow you to have a reasonable chance of avoiding a jam all the way up to 75% soak, and then it ramps up exponentially from there. So what do you, as the player, do? Take the gamble or stop firing in Ultra mode for guaranteed DPS? In either case, I've created relief for the OpFor to exploit and, thus, kept the combination from being too good. At the same time, I've made it such that those 'Mechs which dedicate to UACs at the cost of tremendous speed and durability penalties have a reward for doing so, as jams will be infrequent due to the low heat.

Naturally, though, that means Clan UACs and IS UACs have different jam performance curves.

[LordNothing]

problem with analyzing uac jam is that in the big picture it kind of levels out to a nominal dps value. so it appears at least to perform as discribed on the tin. from a more granular perspective, the one players have, its all over the place. so while it may appear balanced in pgi's metrics its not really something you can depend on unless you have at least 30% or higher jam chance reduction. its in the place the ppc used to occupy, only used when quirks are available. and there are still a lot of jam chance quirks still out there.

i think it needs to be revised, like double the salvo size but keep the shell damage the same. then let the dice roll dictate how many rounds to fire rather than a binary jam, no jam roll. then just make the jam time a function of cd, like a flat 2x. then you could buff jam time by unlocking cooldown nodes. unlocking the jam chance nodes reduced the jam chance.

id also change it from a flat roll, die size about 6x the number of rounds that may be fired in one salvo, roughly equivalent to the 17% jam chance we currently have. like say you have a 6 round burst from an ac10 for a total of 20 damage. this would be a theoretical d36 roll, 1-6 will fire that many rounds and jam the gun, higher values are free shots. each jam chance node might simply add half a salvo to the dice roll. you can also trim off the die size for multiple guns firing all at once, and let you control boating without the arbitrary 30% quirks all over the place.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ade the Rare, on 26 May 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

The -5% jam chance per node is a joke; the weapon is broken unless you can field at least three of the damn things, and even then it's a lottery.

And who the hell fields 3x UAC5's that have a few seconds of working, front-facing dps when for the same tonnage you can take (less a single ton) 2x AC20's you can obliterate a target with and then turn to spread dmg from the inevitable return fire... Hell even one AC20 and a lot of ammo is a better choice.

Honestly, -5% jam cooldown wouldn't convince me to take it either.

Yeah that is how I feel. When they up'ed the jam chance and duration, it broke every damn build I had that relied on a single UAC for sustainable damage and even with two it is questionable at best. I am sorry I can't have between 10-24 tons of my available weapons weight being unusable for 6-8 seconds, every other shot, it is just ridiculous.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

The mechanic is not there to make it impossible to run hot UAC builds. The mechanic is there to force a desired behavior on the players when they know the ramifications of firing in Ultra mode while hot. I can engineer my curve to allow you to have a reasonable chance of avoiding a jam all the way up to 75% soak, and then it ramps up exponentially from there. So what do you, as the player, do? Take the gamble or stop firing in Ultra mode for guaranteed DPS?

You've still incentivized the player to avoid taking hotter weapons because generally ballistic/energy mix builds are hotter than their boating counterparts, the advantage of them is the fact you have low heat weapons that you can keep up a higher DPS compared to pure energy boats and higher burst than pure ballistic boats. It basically adds a disadvantage to the mix builds that doesn't really need to be there imo. I'd much prefer a mechanic that gives relief regardless of heat levels so pure dakka boats can't exploit that and wreck enough things early on and not have to take that gamble because of the damage they just put out overcame the enemy.

Yeonne Greene, on 26 May 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

At the same time, I've made it such that those 'Mechs which dedicate to UACs at the cost of tremendous speed and durability penalties have a reward for doing so, as jams will be infrequent due to the low heat.

That's what I'm worried about because dakka has shown to be strong in those sort of situations, when you can end the fight before you even reach high heat, I don't really like that being a thing necessarily.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 May 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[BumbleBee]

HGAK47, on 26 May 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Ive recently been using the huntsman with a ultra ac/20, ive got it built like a Yen Lo Wang basically, im trying to practice for IS ultra / ac20 (assuming IS UAC/20 will be similar to Clan UAC/20)

The HuntsWang is one of my favourite builds to play, but due to RNGesus is very feast/famine. One time you play it you'll almost constantly jam, the next time you are an agile DPS monster.

I've found that for some reason (possibly even just coincidence, but still) that you seem to be less likely to jam if your double tap is on the 2nd half of the cooldown bar

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

You've still incentivized the player to avoid taking hotter weapons because generally ballistic/energy mix builds are hotter than their boating counterparts, the advantage of them is the fact you have low heat weapons that you can keep up a higher DPS compared to pure energy boats and higher burst than pure ballistic boats. It basically adds a disadvantage to the mix builds that doesn't really need to be there imo. I'd much prefer a mechanic that gives relief regardless of heat levels so pure dakka boats can't exploit that and wreck enough things early on and not have to take that gamble because of the damage they just put out overcame the enemy.

Have I? You can always fire those UACs on standard mode for a bit until the heat drops below the safety threshold and then start going ham again because a pair of UACs shouldn't be hot enough to really override the 15 DHS minimum you ought to be running for PPC+Dakka anyway (read: roll back that godd*mn heat nerf). It, overall, wouldn't be that much different than the current use case; all I've done is change the management pattern and give you more control over it. You will have enough firepower for a reasonably long push, you just won't have indefinite firepower. And you shouldn't. That's broken.

Also, we have enough checks to test your ability to manage metrics. I like that small bit of randomness because it's a check to your judgement skills.

Quote

That's what I'm worried about because dakka has shown to be strong in those sort of situations, when you can end the fight before you even reach high heat, I don't really like that being a thing necessarily.

That problem has already been solved with pop-tarting. Easy, done deal. Only need to worry about it on smaller maps without enough room to maneuver a team, but that's the meta for that map and that's okay.

Also ghost heat.