104 replies to this topic

[Phoolan Devi]

Kiran Yagami, on 31 May 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

The skill tree grows on me right up until I need a skill up a new mech. Then it makes me embed my head into my desk. Seriously, the exp gains need to be what they are now during the event, double. Either that or the cost needs to be halved. Anything else is just pure agony. You aren't going to keep any new players around that way.

You realize that the old system was worse for new players, right? The new skill tree was needed to attract new players!

[Alistair Winter]

As long as you're happy, that's what important.

Please keep buying those mech packs and new $20 hero mechs, because I want PGI to have as much money to spend on MW5 as possible. Thanks!

[Phoolan Devi]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 29 May 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

You should extend this further, though...spend the 1.4 million C-bills it'll take to finish your 91-point mastery, which leaves you with 3.8 million C-bills left...not enough to buy your next mech, unless you want an IS mech under 50 tons, so it'll be more grind because under the old system, you could have saved all your C-bills for the next mech purchase, but now you've spent 4.1 million on skills instead, leaving you with more of a grind to increase your stable. It's definitely going to be a lot harder for newer players to build their stables. I too started up an alt account and after buying my 2nd mech and desired equipment, all the rest of my C-bills are going to the skill tree, so I'll have to grind just as much after reaching 91 nodes to then afford the next mech.

What you are totally forgetting is, that he has: radar derp, seismic, target decay, target retention, seismic and sensor range. Not only would it have been impossible to fit that many modules into any mech, try to grind all the gxp and c-bills out in just 25 matches .... even with cadet bonus.

And even under the old system, the c-bills of the cadet bonus would have been gone after the purchase of the second mech.....so you would've been stuck grinding c-bills with two variants of the same chassis basiced to get the final third one so you can basic this variant in order to move on to elite and mastery.

I don't know, but the new system is just sooooo much less grindy than the old one......it's so obvious!

[Wraith31]

Reza Malin, on 29 May 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

No more rule of 3, no more module swapping, tailoring mechs to play to their strengths.

Loving it.

The more i play it, the less i see any downsides.

Thoughts? (beyond, "waaah, i have to reskill 100 mechs", because so do i)

I hate it...and I only had 30 mechs or something...cannot imagine poor sods like you with 100 something.

Honestly...the skill tree is less annoying than the blanket nerf they used it to obfuscate.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Phoolan Devi, on 31 May 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

What you are totally forgetting is, that he has: radar derp, seismic, target decay, target retention, seismic and sensor range. Not only would it have been impossible to fit that many modules into any mech, try to grind all the gxp and c-bills out in just 25 matches .... even with cadet bonus.

And even under the old system, the c-bills of the cadet bonus would have been gone after the purchase of the second mech.....so you would've been stuck grinding c-bills with two variants of the same chassis basiced to get the final third one so you can basic this variant in order to move on to elite and mastery.

I don't know, but the new system is just sooooo much less grindy than the old one......it's so obvious!

Depends on the situation...perhaps for QP these nodes are useful, but not so much for comp or FW...unless the higher frequency of LRMs ends up bleeding over into those areas, too. Otherwise, points are better spent for heat management, mobility and armor/structure. Someone could choose to totally avoid the sensor tree and go for all the nodes that equate to the skills they had under the previous system, which is about 63 nodes worth to get back, and pay 2.8 million C-bills for what used to be free, not to mention the pilot skills that gave you perks without having to buy modules after obtaining the skills, such as consumable enhancements. Also, for FW, people tend to have more than one mech of the same chassis or even variant, so the 3-mech grind was actually more beneficial than now, especially when you bought multiples of the same variant that inherited all the skills for free. How about the mechs with ECM that had their ability nerfed and now have to buy nodes equivalent to modules that they didn't want just to get the ECM boosts to get closer to where they were, or LRM boats that lost 100m on their range unless they now spend a minimum of 17 SP (765,000 C-bills) into the weapons tree to get 99m of that range back?

I'm not saying I don't like the Skill Tree...it does offer a lot of welcome flexibility, but when each node, whether it's something that used to be free or something that previously required you to pay 6 million for the module, all cost the same for variable benefits, then that's where I think it ends up being more of a C-bill sink for some where it hadn't been before. Module crazy people will probably save a bunch of C-bills with this new system, but for those like me that never relied on using wall-hack crutches, it costs more.

[Sunstruck]

I feel its still too early to come to any real conclusion, I haven't even skilled up or played half my mechs after patch yet.

The only thing I can say is theres more armor on the battlefield, (duh) so the battles are longer in general.

I honestly don't see a change that a normal quirk pass could have solved with skill tree. I would have been happier seeing a new map or CW improvements.

The only things I enjoy so far is not having the rule of 3, and being able to put advanced zoom on any mech you want.

[Johnny Z]

Now that the new trees have had time to settle in it seems obvious that it was brought in perfectly preserving prior gameplay.

So its all on the up side, no more 3 mech mastery, or module swapping and a proper system is in place.

Looking forward to new content now, thank you.

Edited by Johnny Z, 31 May 2017 - 07:53 PM.

[Reza Malin]

Wraith31, on 31 May 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

I hate it...and I only had 30 mechs or something...cannot imagine poor sods like you with 100 something.

Honestly...the skill tree is less annoying than the blanket nerf they used it to obfuscate.

Blanket nerfs, that were needed, and advertised long ago, to the quirk system.

Blanket nerfs like engine decoupling, which was also needed.

Blanket nerfs before the new tech update which will make IS a good deal more comparable to clans.

Its not all about here and now, or "waaaaah, my kodiak no longer moves like a heavy? Waaaaaah". Which is the general real reason i see people complaining.

[Dee Eight]

Reza Malin, on 31 May 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Its not all about here and now, or "waaaaah, my kodiak no longer moves like a heavy? Waaaaaah". Which is the general real reason i see people complaining.

My only complaint about certain mechs being sloths now is that if all mechs of a weight class are supposedly to be the same agility regardless of engine rating.... how they've handled the 100 ton assaults in particular is disturbingly random. Then again, why are MAD2C's less agile than Super Novas ? They're both chicken walkers. The S.N.'s shouldn't be the more agile of the two. What exactly is the rationale ? And why are IS highlanders more agile than Highlander 2C's ?

Edited by Dee Eight, 01 June 2017 - 12:36 AM.

[Reza Malin]

Dee Eight, on 01 June 2017 - 12:34 AM, said:

My only complaint about certain mechs being sloths now is that if all mechs of a weight class are supposedly to be the same agility regardless of engine rating.... how they've handled the 100 ton assaults in particular is disturbingly random. Then again, why are MAD2C's less agile than Super Novas ? They're both chicken walkers. The S.N.'s shouldn't be the more agile of the two. What exactly is the rationale ? And why are IS highlanders more agile than Highlander 2C's ?

Who cares how they decide it really? The fact is, i still see kodiak 3 doing extremely well, because with those hardpoints how can you not?

Cars these days all have 4 wheels and an engine yet their performance varies greatly. At the end of the day balance and lore dont mix.

I dont care how they got there, kodiaks and some others needed bringing into line as huge heavy assault mechs. The battlemaster is still pretty quick, but then it is only 85 ton. I would have had no issues if they reduced battlemaster agility as well, though arguably they need it.

People just dont like change, that basically sums up the entire skill tree debate.

For reference, i own most IS and Clan assaults, including the kodiak and battlemaster.

Edited by Reza Malin, 02 June 2017 - 11:16 PM.

[R Valentine]

Phoolan Devi, on 31 May 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

You realize that the old system was worse for new players, right? The new skill tree was needed to attract new players!

That doesn't mean anything. We aren't doing any better at retaining new players, so what was the point? We still haven't gone anywhere in terms of cutting down on the grind. That's piss poor. You're trying to win the special Olympics.

[Ruar]

I just found one more positive to the skill tree. I saved about $70 dollars tonight that I would have spent prior to the skill tree on pre-ordering mechs. I'm up to about $200 total since it went live.

[Roadbuster]

I don't care!
The new skill tree isn't bad at all.
You can, to some degree, improve your preferred aspects of a mech. That's great.
Cost to skill is not too bad either. Compared to the rule-of-3, it's cheaper, if you only want 1-2 variants, not even talking about modules.
Changing skills makes use of the XP you get after "mastering" a mech.

But all of that isn't even the greatest part of the recent changes!
How many "underdogs" did you see before? Maybe it's because I like playing non-meta mechs, but I noticed ALOT more variety in the matches.
I see Vindicators, Trebuchets, Dragons, Victors, Atlas, Spiders, Jagermechs, Centurions, Shadow Hawks,Zeussssens, and even Gargoyles now. Mechs which people wouldn't even look at before the recent changes.
People even use AMS now! (Not all, but alot more than before)

And skilling up all the owned mechs isn't that bad either. It's like playing a new mech again.
So far, I'm done with about half of my mechs (~120 total) and I'm having fun

[Ruar]

Roadbuster, on 03 June 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

I don't care!
The new skill tree isn't bad at all.
You can, to some degree, improve your preferred aspects of a mech. That's great.
Cost to skill is not too bad either. Compared to the rule-of-3, it's cheaper, if you only want 1-2 variants, not even talking about modules.
Changing skills makes use of the XP you get after "mastering" a mech.

But all of that isn't even the greatest part of the recent changes!
How many "underdogs" did you see before? Maybe it's because I like playing non-meta mechs, but I noticed ALOT more variety in the matches.
I see Vindicators, Trebuchets, Dragons, Victors, Atlas, Spiders, Jagermechs, Centurions, Shadow Hawks,Zeussssens, and even Gargoyles now. Mechs which people wouldn't even look at before the recent changes.
People even use AMS now! (Not all, but alot more than before)

And skilling up all the owned mechs isn't that bad either. It's like playing a new mech again.
So far, I'm done with about half of my mechs (~120 total) and I'm having fun

I saw all those mechs, except the vindicators, routinely before the ST. What I do see a lot more of now is Orions and Quickdraws. Vindi's are about the same it seems. I'll be impressed when there are Black Knights and Wolverine's running around every few matches instead of once per weekend.

And the reason for all the AMS being carried now is because for various reasons it seems LRMs have become very popular.

[Ted Wayz]

Phoolan Devi, on 31 May 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

What you are totally forgetting is, that he has: radar derp, seismic, target decay, target retention, seismic and sensor range. Not only would it have been impossible to fit that many modules into any mech, try to grind all the gxp and c-bills out in just 25 matches .... even with cadet bonus.

And even under the old system, the c-bills of the cadet bonus would have been gone after the purchase of the second mech.....so you would've been stuck grinding c-bills with two variants of the same chassis basiced to get the final third one so you can basic this variant in order to move on to elite and mastery.

I don't know, but the new system is just sooooo much less grindy than the old one......it's so obvious!

So PGI makes money how?

A new player cares about the game play and enjoying that game play. What the skill tree did is create a greater chasm between new and old players. And with low populations new players are facing tier 1 daily.

The key is to convert new players into paying customers. How does new players facing stronger competition, made even stronger by the skill tree, induce them to spend money?

At some point you people will clue in that it is all about the money.

[Ted Wayz]

Roadbuster, on 03 June 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

Compared to the rule-of-3, it's cheaper, if you only want 1-2 variants, not even talking about modules.

People keep bringing up "The Rule of 3" like it matters.

First, PGI did not change their revenue model so you still pay $$$ for three.

Second, a new player starts off with one mech. The key is to get that player to stay and eventually spend money. How does the skill tree facilitate that?

Third, how much more are you going to spend because of the skill tree? if the answer is zero then why did PGI spend resources on it?

If it doesn't generate more revenue than the old system then it is a bad business decision. And if you do not currently fund the game but enjoy the skill tree...please just piss off. Put your money where your posts are.

[Bigbacon]

Is there a way to get mechs like the dragon 1N and the Huugin back to being playable and fun using the skill tree??

the 1N is just total bleh as is the huugin because ROF is so terrible you are melted before you can get a few shots off now.

Once semi viable/fun mechs are now again just put back on the chopping block because they can't compete at all now. You better be using a META mech or suffer greatly.

#SkillTreeSucks

Edited by Bigbacon, 03 June 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[Phoolan Devi]

Ted Wayz, on 03 June 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

So PGI makes money how?

I don't know.......but wouldn't know why they should make less

Quote

A new player cares about the game play and enjoying that game play. What the skill tree did is create a greater chasm between new and old players. And with low populations new players are facing tier 1 daily.

I can't see where it created a greater chasm, but let's assume it did, the new player can close the gap more quickly now.

Quote

The key is to convert new players into paying customers. How does new players facing stronger competition, made even stronger by the skill tree, induce them to spend money?

The same way it did before the skill tree!

Quote

At some point you people will clue in that it is all about the money.

Where I do not see any change so far.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Phoolan Devi, on 03 June 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

I can't see where it created a greater chasm, but let's assume it did, the new player can close the gap more quickly now.

Until PGI gives up their 3-mech pack system (even the recent Escalation packs are continuing the tradition), a player that buys 3 or more mechs of the same chassis in a mech pack and wants to skill up those 3 or more mechs (because to only play one or two would be a waste of real dollars), then they are having to grind more XP than under the old system. Sure, if you want to look at a purchase of 1 mech, the grind is less...but again, PGI is still selling 3 variants of one mech in a pack. They ought to look at ways of letting people choose A La Carte and select the one or two variants they really wanted. The only other alternative way to use real dollars to get started is to buy an individual Hero or Champion, but then those are about the same price as a 3-mech pack anyway.

Also, wasn't there a shortcut that was opened up once you got Elites on 3 mechs in each particular weight class? If I remember right, once I had mastered my Blackjacks, then as long as I did the Basics on 3 Centurions, I could just take one favorite Centurion variant and get the Elite and Master for it without having to get the Elite on the other 2 variants, which cut down on XP needed under the old system to Master the single variant you really wanted. Plus, buying a duplicate of that favorite variant instantly Mastered that one, too.

So yeah...we still have 3-mech pack sales with a total combined XP requirement higher than under the old system, and none of the shortcuts that the old system gave us. The new skill tree XP requirement and associated grind is only helpful for those buying a single mech variant with C-bills. Where is the logic behind that? It's like they nerfed the incentive to buy multi-variant mech packs with real money and are encouraging the use of virtual in-game currency to buy single variants, which is harder to do because most of your C-bills first go to buying skill points for the mechs you are leveling before you can save for a new one.

In summary, I really do like the variety of the skill tree, but the XP/C-bill costs are still too high compared to what we had before, especially considering we are still being offered multi-variant mech packs rather than singles or A La Carte.

[fat4eyes]

Ted Wayz, on 03 June 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

Third, how much more are you going to spend because of the skill tree? if the answer is zero then why did PGI spend resources on it?

If it doesn't generate more revenue than the old system then it is a bad business decision. And if you do not currently fund the game but enjoy the skill tree...please just piss off. Put your money where your posts are.

In a multiplayer game, other players ARE a required part of the experience. If there are no other players (either because new players don't stay the NPE is bad or because existing players get bored and stop playing) then the game ends and there's no money from anyone. The skill tree gives both new and old players more reason to keep playing, which means the game keeps going and the people who pay keep paying. Just because you can't see a direct line from feature to sales doesn't mean the feature doesn't help sales.