71 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 31 May 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Sensors seem so situational to me I have a hard time justifying it. As far as survival even adding 10 armor and/or structure to your CT or ST can mean the difference between surviving to kill other mechs and win the match or dying and being able to do nothing but spectate.

Sorry, but on many a mech, especially Clan Mech? Survival simply isn't worth the 20ish Node investment.

Oh boy... my MDD gets.... 6? More armor on it's STs. YEs, it gets some structure too... but since the moment I get hit internal on a Clan Mech, I lose all the stuff in that component, anyhow? It's placebo affect. Conversely, by using those pts in Senors, I get my LRM locks much faster, sooner, and hold them longer....meaning about 25-30% more missile/dmg on target per match.

THAT lends far more to my MDD surviving than miniscule armor increases do.

Now, were I running a SPlat Dog? Then yes, Sensors would be largely pointless, and any armor/structure boost possible is a plus.

Skill tree, used correctly ain't black and white, unless your builds/roles are all black and white.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 May 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Except you get more useful things with getting heat gen nodes, like cooldown. Max heat gen gets you a slight bit more DPS (at the cost of heat cap). Quick ignition is nice, but they don't add up enough to what it used to be even maxed out from what I can tell (probably wrong on that though), improved gyros feels mostly worthless as does speed retention and those nodes add up. To get max cool run I think it takes 17 nodes (3 more and you can max out heat containment) for only 8 really useful nodes (I'm still not sold on hill climb). That's a lot of wasted nodes, especially if I want to go down the firepower tree anyway.


Assassin has JJs, that said, mechs like the Marauder IIC or Battlemaster which I typically play benefit far greater from firepower quirks than some things like hill climb (since knowing good paths can mitigate this somewhat).


UAVs are critical for lights and assaults in comp, so I always go UAVs first.


Naw, even on lights I don't bother with that tree, I don't know, it's nice but having the ability to dole out that firepower better just interests me more.

The value of ops/heat perks can depend on how many DHS you have. On mechs like the MAD IIC lpl/cerml build it can be very significant - at work so I don't have the math but it's telling. I think of it like the survival tree - bigger the starting number (dhs) the bigger the value it gives.

Hill climb.... what sold me was being able to take my MAD IIC up a hill on Alpine I simply had never been able to climb before. Same with Polar, Canyon, even Boreal - being able to get up and over the hill by the left gate when attacking is a huge perk.

I'm not sure you can say there's 1 ultimate skill tree build. I consider that a big plus.

[Davegt27]

don't have a favorite Mech anymore
the Huntsman is way better but for the most part they all suck

one match you have this super Mech the next thing you know you cant do 200 dmg

all I see is PGI's super computer at work

[N a p e s]

Viktor Drake, on 31 May 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Linebacker.

It was good before, it can be a beast now. Don't want to talk it up too much because the second anyone makes a comment about a mech being good, PGI makes sure it isn't.

Ya, keep it hush hush man.

*please don't nerf my 8 SPL Linebacker*

[Dago Red]

Zeus's have been feeling really nice lately. Not super straight up fast nor the biggest damage monsters but they handle like butter.

It feels like piloting a medium but packs armor and weapons for 80 tons and a lot of them are easy to build lefty which is novel.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

The value of ops/heat perks can depend on how many DHS you have.

No, it doesn't. I've done the math several times. The difference between heat gen and ops is independent of both heat sink count and heat load. This is a common misconception on these forums but regardless if you actually do the math you will find there is no difference.

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

Same with Polar, Canyon, even Boreal

Again, knowing the paths is more helpful than hill climb. All hill climb should really change is how fast you can traverse those ramps, not whether you can or not.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 May 2017 - 12:55 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

N a p e s, on 31 May 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

*please don't nerf my 8 SPL Linebacker*

Both the 8 SPL and the 4 SRM4, 6 SPL Linebacker are nice.
I tried the 1 LPL, 4 ERML Laser Vomit, but ended up switching to 2 LPL, 2 ERML, and am getting reat milage out of those two high mounted LPLs. Runs incredibly cool for that loadout, too. And the agility is just wonderful.

[Palfatreos]

Ebon jaguar/night gyr

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 May 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

No, it doesn't. I've done the math several times. The difference between heat gen and ops is independent of both heat sink count and heat load. This is a common misconception on these forums but regardless if you actually do the math you will find there is no difference.


Again, knowing the paths is more helpful than hill climb. All hill climb should really change is how fast you can traverse those ramps, not whether you can or not.

The value of each is the same relative to each other - weapon tree and ops tree are each comparable.

However the value of having heat quirks is relative to the dhs load. If the quirks act lime they say they do the more DHS you have the more they should do.

My point however was that on a mech with a heavy heat load it's worth it (to me) to double up heat gen and ops. The cooldown quirks, especially on Clan mechs, have such a tiny impact. I'm rarely running a DPS build and so see less value in it.

Are you saying that "heat gen" and "faster cooling" have the exact same impact regardless of the number of DHS? That wouldn't make sense.

[Reno Blade]

I grabbed my Jaegermech with 2x AC5 and 2x AC2 (XL255) used most weapon nodes + structure and twist speed and having a blast.
Just got a game over 1100dmg with it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

However the value of having heat quirks is relative to the dhs load. If the quirks act lime they say they do the more DHS you have the more they should do.

I'm getting tired of dispelling this misconception.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

No, they really aren't.

Here's some simple math to prove it:
For a mech with 50% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 3.84 (4 originally) heat generated which translates to 52.08333% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 4 heat generated which translates to 53% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 33% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 5.76 (6 originally) heat generated which translates to 34.7222% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 6 heat generated which translates to 35.333% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 50% heat efficiency (and more DHS), we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 4 dissipation and 7.68 (8 originally) heat generated which translates to 52.08333% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 4.24 dissipation (4 originally) and 8 heat generated which translates to 53% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

The advantages of cool run over heat gen are ambivalent to the heat load (and vice versa, the advantages are ambivalent to how many DHS you run).

It works no different if you try to increase the number of DHS instead of the amount of heat generated, the results are always the same. It all has to do with proportions. Though cool run/heat containment obviously helps with outside heat factors, which are essentially just jump jets and flamers so there is that to keep in mind.

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

My point however was that on a mech with a heavy heat load it's worth it (to me) to double up heat gen and ops. The cooldown quirks, especially on Clan mechs, have such a tiny impact. I'm rarely running a DPS build and so see less value in it.

For laser vomit, sure, the cooldown quirks aren't worth it, but the range and duration quirks are. Cooldown is still more useful than the ops nodes, and the survival tree is still nice for mechs like the MAD-IIC even compared to ops. I flip flop sometimes on that (seriously, cost to respec is stupid) but I still swing towards the survival tree just because you can't always be on the offensive.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 May 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[Old-dirty B]

No matter what skillsystem or patch its influenced by, the 6xSPL Locust 1E will remain my favourite mech by far. Any nerf pass will be overcome and gameplay will be adjusted accordingly to outplay its opponents.

Btw, QK is right

[Blhurr]

ON1-P

80kph. 111 front CT armor. 50point brawl alpha.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm getting tired of dispelling this misconception.


It works no different if you try to increase the number of DHS instead of the amount of heat generated, the results are always the same. It all has to do with proportions.


For laser vomit, sure, the cooldown quirks aren't worth it, but the range and duration quirks are. Cooldown is still more useful than the ops nodes, and the survival tree is still nice for mechs like the MAD-IIC even compared to ops. I flip flop sometimes on that (seriously, cost to respec is stupid) but I still swing towards the survival tree just because you can't always be on the offensive.

I get what you mean on the ops vs firepower heat gen quirks. Those are comparable.

My point was that if the quirks worked as advertised they should be more effective (as in better total heat cap/dissipation depending on quirk) with more total dhs. If that's not the case and it's just a flat value then, well, they should rename the quirks.

I did know that heat perks in each category are comparable. I just figures, bases on how they are described, the larger your heat cap and dissipation the larger the return - much like how mobility and survival work.

Lemme test it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

My point was that if the quirks worked as advertised they should be more effective (as in better total heat cap/dissipation depending on quirk) with more total dhs. If that's not the case and it's just a flat value then, well, they should rename the quirks.

It has nothing to do with advertising and everything to do with people just not understanding the math of proportions (because heat efficiency is a ratio between heat dissipation and heat generated and the skills only affect one side). Given the same percentages, heat gen will always be better because it impacts the denominator (heat generated). Heat gen also gets exponentially better the higher the percentages.

1000000/(10000 - (quirk %)²): percentage of heat gen heat efficiency compared to cool run heat efficiency

So comparing 10% heat gen vs 10% cool run:
1000000/(10000 - (10)²) = 101.01010101010101%

Comparing 50% heat gen vs 50% cool run:
1000000/(10000 - (50)²) = 133.33333333333333%

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 May 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

Catapult C1 with all the sensor tree,uav for 1 sp, and all the missile nodes for velocity and range. Out of the nine mechs I have C1 is best mech so far.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

The value of each is the same relative to each other - weapon tree and ops tree are each comparable.

However the value of having heat quirks is relative to the dhs load. If the quirks act lime they say they do the more DHS you have the more they should do.

My point however was that on a mech with a heavy heat load it's worth it (to me) to double up heat gen and ops. The cooldown quirks, especially on Clan mechs, have such a tiny impact. I'm rarely running a DPS build and so see less value in it.

Are you saying that "heat gen" and "faster cooling" have the exact same impact regardless of the number of DHS? That wouldn't make sense.

I have yet to have a mech that didn't get a fairly large advantage out of having both Ops and the heat gen quirks in the weapons tree. If nothing else it means you can drop a few DHS in order to put more ammo, weapons or other equipment on the mech which lets face it is an advantage in and of itself.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 May 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with advertising and everything to do with people just not understanding the math of proportions (because heat efficiency is a ratio between heat dissipation and heat generated and the skills only affect one side). Given the same percentages, heat gen will always be better because it impacts the denominator (heat generated). Heat gen also gets exponentially better the higher the percentages.

1000000/(10000 - (quirk %)²): percentage of heat gen heat efficiency compared to cool run heat efficiency

Except heat generation is dependent on weapon heat generated - ergo more heat your weapons generate the greater the value of a % gen reduction. Dissipation is a product of your HS, the more DHS you have the larger the dissipation value. Heat cap is also a product of total DHS. Ergo a % bonus to dissipation and capacity will grow in value relative to total DHS in the mech. I get that heat efficiency is a ratio of gen vs dis. The question is does the value of the cap/dis quirks rise with total DHS, as it should. Will test later.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

The question is does the value of the cap/dis quirks rise with total DHS, as it should.

Why is this a question exactly? Nowhere did I mention that it wasn't, only that the bonuses of heat gen vs ops is static with regards to its impact on heat efficiency and thus sustained DPS because everything has to do with proportions.

So long as you are comparing for example 4% heat gen against 6% cool run, the differences (proportionally) between the two heat efficiency values will be the exact same.

For a mech with a base heat efficiency of 33%, 50%, or 25% the 6% cool run will always produce 1.76% better heat efficiency and thus 1.76% better sustained DPS over the mech with just 4% heat gen. It doesn't matter how many DHS you run or how many weapons you stack, the results will ALWAYS be the same. I don't know what to tell you other than that is just the magic of how the math works out.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 May 2017 - 03:24 PM.

[FireStoat]

Adder.

Since I can't get a refund on my super agility nerfed Warrant or Scorch, I've been trolling it up in an Adder. It still remains a remarkably good mobile gun platform.

Edit - if I could swap my Warrant for the new Ebon Jag hero and the Scorch for the Nanuq, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Edited by FireStoat, 31 May 2017 - 03:25 PM.