118 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Jay Leon Hart, on 02 June 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'm talking about engine type, not engine size.


As above

ahh, now i see what you meant.



But this isnt because PGI necessarily. This is Battletech and has been but if MWO would take a few (more) steps AWAY from BATTLETECH they may see that BATTLETECH doesn't work in FPS shooters like nice puzzle pieces.


and this is the reason i say ENGINES are the NUMBER ONE thing that is KILLING BALANCE you have to start somewhere and Engines are the best spot IMO.

Edited by Revis Volek, 02 June 2017 - 09:25 AM.

[Grus]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

And? If it comes down to tryhard mode, are you really gonna choose them over Clan alternative? We will see tech disparity soon enough, once 8v8 ranked mode comes out and tryhards pile on it. Let's just pray that the energy rebalance further closes the gap between IS lasers and Clan ones, cause IS small class lasers are plain laughable right now.

I'm gonna dip my toe in lore here, there needs to be a difference between the two and it needs to be easily seen and felt. Otherwise we are all just IS mechs, no point to use clan mechs. (Gosh it's cold in here) per lore clan mech's and tech are supposed to be superior. Having IS Las with a shorter burn time is superior, less damage per shot; inferior, being able to fire more per fire group superior.. clan Las more damage per shot superior, longer burn time (less damage where you want it) inferior. More heat per shot inferior. And don't get me started on the crap they did to the Gauss rifle.. (Ok I'm freezing) I'm just concerned with trying to make everything taste the same there will be a bleaching of identity/flavor of each faction. If we dumb it down too much we will be playing FPS DOTA and the only difference is the skins (mech) we are useing...

[Jay Leon Hart]

Revis Volek, on 02 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

ahh, now i see what you meant.

But this isnt because PGI necessarily. This is Battletech and has been but if MWO would take a few (more) steps AWAY from BATTLETECH they may see that BATTLETECH doesn't work in FPS shooters like nice puzzle pieces.

and this is the reason i say ENGINES are the NUMBER ONE thing that is KILLING BALANCE you have to start somewhere and Engines are the best spot IMO.

They need to get someone who knows how to code and make it so Engines die from loss of HP or getting Crit 3-6(XL-STD) times. Not based on ST's. Then give the IS 4 crits per side and the clan 3.

Aye, adherence to TT for this kind of thing really irks me.

My terribad idea for "fixing" the engine issue is simple;
OmniMech XL = current Clan XL
BattleMech XL = current IS XL

It is inelegant and will make people (read: Clanners) angry, but it helps alleviate one of the bigger balance issues, keeps OmniMechs competitive, and make IS Omnis more viable.

[Grus]

Revis Volek, on 02 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

ahh, now i see what you meant.



But this isnt because PGI necessarily. This is Battletech and has been but if MWO would take a few (more) steps AWAY from BATTLETECH they may see that BATTLETECH doesn't work in FPS shooters like nice puzzle pieces.


and this is the reason i say ENGINES are the NUMBER ONE thing that is KILLING BALANCE you have to start somewhere and Engines are the best spot IMO.

a different take on the same idea, make it more expensive. It being clan tech, it should be a big investment in order to purchase and maintain said superiority. IS tech should be cheep considering some of these mechs are over 500 years old.

[Dino Might]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

I'm gonna dip my toe in lore here, there needs to be a difference between the two and it needs to be easily seen and felt. Otherwise we are all just IS mechs, no point to use clan mechs. (Gosh it's cold in here) per lore clan mech's and tech are supposed to be superior. Having IS Las with a shorter burn time is superior, less damage per shot; inferior, being able to fire more per fire group superior.. clan Las more damage per shot superior, longer burn time (less damage where you want it) inferior. More heat per shot inferior. And don't get me started on the crap they did to the Gauss rifle.. (Ok I'm freezing) I'm just concerned with trying to make everything taste the same there will be a bleaching of identity/flavor of each faction. If we dumb it down too much we will be playing FPS DOTA and the only difference is the skins (mech) we are useing...

Many of us would prefer it were only IS mechs and maybe a 3025 timeline. The introduction of the Clans into MWO, just like in tabletop, was a gross error in terms of game mechanics made simply as a money grab.

I can say with only a hint of nostalgia biasing this view, that pre-"release" MWO was the best MWO. 8 on 8, each mech felt significantly different, but intuitive. A single AC-20 was scary. A dual UAC-5 Catapult was a force to be reckoned with. The players weren't so refined in tactics and builds as to make each game a stale replay of all its predecessors. Those were the days...

Clans suck. Always have, always will. It's the same problem as Superman. He's too good. No disadvantages. Totally lame.

[Grus]

Dino Might, on 02 June 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Many of us would prefer it were only IS mechs and maybe a 3025 timeline. The introduction of the Clans into MWO, just like in tabletop, was a gross error in terms of game mechanics made simply as a money grab.

I can say with only a hint of nostalgia biasing this view, that pre-"release" MWO was the best MWO. 8 on 8, each mech felt significantly different, but intuitive. A single AC-20 was scary. A dual UAC-5 Catapult was a force to be reckoned with. The players weren't so refined in tactics and builds as to make each game a stale replay of all its predecessors. Those were the days...

Clans suck. Always have, always will. It's the same problem as Superman. He's too good. No disadvantages. Totally lame.

Still got beat by a bat with no powers I think if we made clan mech's more expensive that might fix that.

[Revis Volek]

Dino Might, on 02 June 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Many of us would prefer it were only IS mechs and maybe a 3025 timeline. The introduction of the Clans into MWO, just like in tabletop, was a gross error in terms of game mechanics made simply as a money grab.

I can say with only a hint of nostalgia biasing this view, that pre-"release" MWO was the best MWO. 8 on 8, each mech felt significantly different, but intuitive. A single AC-20 was scary. A dual UAC-5 Catapult was a force to be reckoned with. The players weren't so refined in tactics and builds as to make each game a stale replay of all its predecessors. Those were the days...

Clans suck. Always have, always will. It's the same problem as Superman. He's too good. No disadvantages. Totally lame.

HBS has scratched that itch for us though...


Being F2P they would have never made it this long with that motto of only a few mechs and 12v12 had more to do with servers then anything from what I hear. Less matches but same amount of peeps. They would have never made a cent had it not been for the mech pack nostalgia crew around here.

[Deathlike]

You can tell by the thread who plays SpreadsheetWarrior or who actually plays the game or even who sucks at the mechlab.

The people that claim Clan is UP and/or IS is OP is really the problem.

[Revis Volek]

Deathlike, on 02 June 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

You can tell by the thread who plays SpreadsheetWarrior or who actually plays the game or even who sucks at the mechlab.

The people that claim Clan is UP and/or IS is OP is really the problem.

Its like buying a KGC...

Seems awesome(no not the barn), good front profile (sorta, compared to others. See aforementioned mech), Has some nice load outs it can do, doesn't need XL really but is slow like others. But it seems like a soild mech on paper seems serviceable.



Then you take it into a match, Decals on, Painted, Warhorns and cockpeet swagger is a check!


You ready to kill something, the numbers say you are so ready! But the match starts and you suddenly realize, the KGC makes a great sponge for those messy LRM spills, and its even better for any and every direct fire mech that has even a 12m height advantage on you! Because that mech that seemed like a sweet front line brawler is now the size of a swimming pool when being looked at from above and being filled with enemy dmg to boot.


Sometime things that look really strongk, too strongk even paper. But actually suck once its thrown out into the mix and has to do something other then unleash it sweet, sweet crabby patty payload. If it doing that its fine, but dont get shot at, oh god the protatoes cant even miss that thing.

Edited by Revis Volek, 02 June 2017 - 10:38 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Jay Leon Hart, on 02 June 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

Aye, adherence to TT for this kind of thing really irks me.

My terribad idea for "fixing" the engine issue is simple;
OmniMech XL = current Clan XL
BattleMech XL = current IS XL

It is inelegant and will make people (read: Clanners) angry, but it helps alleviate one of the bigger balance issues, keeps OmniMechs competitive, and make IS Omnis more viable.

This is an interesting solution, given the strength of the MAD IIC and KDK. However, I don't know if clan assaults need to be nerfed anymore, and if this handles the Night Gyr problem.

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

And? If it comes down to tryhard mode, are you really gonna choose them over Clan alternative? We will see tech disparity soon enough, once 8v8 ranked mode comes out and tryhards pile on it. Let's just pray that the energy rebalance further closes the gap between IS lasers and Clan ones, cause IS small class lasers are plain laughable right now.

Well considering that I've all but abandoned my timber wolf and started playing my IS mechs more and more (need to get a proper engine in my grasshopper, I'm broke ) I'd say yes.

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

a different take on the same idea, make it more expensive. It being clan tech, it should be a big investment in order to purchase and maintain said superiority. IS tech should be cheep considering some of these mechs are over 500 years old.

As soon as playing Clans is only available to the top 10% of players to reflect better Clan pilot skill requirements and people have, at most, 1 mech and almost 0 customization and Clans don't actually own mechs but are assigned them on a match by match basis then I'd be willing to consider more lore stuff like Clans having to be OP.

However that's never what anyone asks for - they cherry-pick and happen to end up with 'my side should have superior tech and your side should just get to die repeatedly to make up for it' as a solution.

Battletech ended up going to 1 to 1 tech balance for IS/Clan factions. Mixed tech and shared tech essentially. Why? Because even in TT the 'Clans OP' idea was a total failure.

We are not obligated to repeat the worst mistakes of the franchise. There's a ton of lore things we can do. I just find it funny that there's a subsect of players who cling very tightly to the 'I should get OP Clan tech and you guys should have to gang up to beat me' without any of the other stuff.

Top 10% of players get Clan tech. Nobody else does. Then you can make Clan tech OP.

[Jay Leon Hart]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

Top 10% of players get Clan tech. Nobody else does. Then you can make Clan tech OP.

I'd better start piloting IS 'mechs again

[Dino Might]

I think the bottom 10% should be the only ones to get clan mechs, and then make them lore friendly OP.

Why make the strongest even stronger? Talk about boring for everyone.

[Deathlike]

Dino Might, on 02 June 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

I think the bottom 10% should be the only ones to get clan mechs, and then make them lore friendly OP.

Why make the strongest even stronger? Talk about boring for everyone.

They would just get farmed. That doesn't equate to good balance either.

[El Bandito]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

I'm gonna dip my toe in lore here, there needs to be a difference between the two and it needs to be easily seen and felt. Otherwise we are all just IS mechs, no point to use clan mechs. (Gosh it's cold in here) per lore clan mech's and tech are supposed to be superior. Having IS Las with a shorter burn time is superior, less damage per shot; inferior, being able to fire more per fire group superior.. clan Las more damage per shot superior, longer burn time (less damage where you want it) inferior. More heat per shot inferior. And don't get me started on the crap they did to the Gauss rifle.. (Ok I'm freezing) I'm just concerned with trying to make everything taste the same there will be a bleaching of identity/flavor of each faction. If we dumb it down too much we will be playing FPS DOTA and the only difference is the skins (mech) we are useing...

There are many things wrong with what you said.

Dota has completely different heroes per side. It is anything but homogeneous.

Nobody asked IS and Clan laser to feel the same. No one. If anything, OP is trying to make both sides homogeneous by trying to increase CLPL GH limit to three.

This is is MP only arena game. If you make Clan mechs superior due to lore, then there is not point in piloting IS mechs. As is, overwhelming number of comp level mechs are Clan already.

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

it is easy to spread no question, but the fact that PvP good vs good, the Battlemaster will come out on top, shield arms and better rate of fire and higher HP in the Battlemaster allows the pilot to dictate where he takes damage. If the clan pilot wants to do a full burn into his target spot then he has to wait for the Battlemaster to present it. And that will only happen when the Battlemaster is ready to pump 50+ damage into the ct in less time then it takes me to fire, recharge fire again and shutdown. Because of overheat. (Brawl situation.) The option is never get in brawl range and out fraud at range. But again maps arnt big enough and the range difference isn't big enough and the mech's arnt fast enough to take real advantage of that. So it's down to the brawl.

Add in Way to many corridors and cover..

Except the forums already have threads complaining about maps being too big...

Edited by El Bandito, 02 June 2017 - 05:30 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

Mortalcoil, on 31 May 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

What is the logic behind clan XL engines requiring both sides to be destroyed. It's illogical for an engine to work when half of it is blown up. It is illogical that clan weapons take up less tonnage as well as less slots when on the mech itself it looks identical to the IS version. Why are clanners only allowed to bring 240 tons while IS can bring 265 tons. This is illogical. What are quirks? Quirks are illogical. Why does a futuristic mech have missile technology worse than present day military. Perhaps the simple answer is balance?

There are a few engines out there right now that can shut off half their pistons and still function. even a few that have had several pistons break the case and the engine still ran, albit less power.

[Zergling]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

If the clan pilot wants to do a full burn into his target spot then he has to wait for the Battlemaster to present it. And that will only happen when the Battlemaster is ready to pump 50+ damage into the ct in less time then it takes me to fire, recharge fire again and shutdown. Because of overheat. (Brawl situation.)

It takes a 5x IS Large Pulse Laser build a minimum of 1.17 seconds to fire all weapons without ghost heat penalties.
It takes a 2x Clan Large Pulse Laser and 6x Clan ER Medium Laser build a minimum of 1.15 seconds to fire all weapons.

In other words, in the time the Battlemaster does 55 damage to the CT of a Marauder IIC, it has taken 68 damage to a side torso.

The Battlemaster can mitigate that by firing all its Large Pulses at once, but that will trigger ghost heat.
That produces so much heat, that in a brawl situation it is absolutely guaranteed to lose.

[Snowbluff]

Zergling, on 02 June 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

It takes a 5x IS Large Pulse Laser build a minimum of 1.17 seconds to fire all weapons without ghost heat penalties.
It takes a 2x Clan Large Pulse Laser and 6x Clan ER Medium Laser build a minimum of 1.15 seconds to fire all weapons.

In other words, in the time the Battlemaster does 55 damage to the CT of a Marauder IIC, it has taken 68 damage to a side torso.

The Battlemaster can mitigate that by firing all its Large Pulses at once, but that will trigger ghost heat.
That produces so much heat, that in a brawl situation it is absolutely guaranteed to lose.

Indeed, in that case it's 3 alphas to ST out a BLR in an ideal situation with perfect aiming with no damage lost to twisting with the most power clan mech in the game, which is already getting nerfed in the upcoming energy rebalance. Just spitballing here as I don't think the cLPL's ghost heat group should be lowered unless it gets a bit nerf then.

So the BLR strat is fundamentally wrong. If you're in a brawl, and aim is assumed to be perfect, then the BLR should twist during the MAD IIC's laser duration. Rather then fire, fire twist, you fire twist fire to avoid ghost heat and the full alpha of the MAD IIC. The MAD IIC has no way to avoid damage, as aim is true, and the CT is visible from every front angle.

Or you can go 2 PPC and 3 LPL, unleash your full alpha for 41 heat (versus 56 for the 5 LPL. I think this was Snuggle Time's or Babycakes "joke new meta"), then twist with .42 of a second burn left on the MAD IIC's alpha.

[Gyrok]

Zergling, on 02 June 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

It takes a 5x IS Large Pulse Laser build a minimum of 1.17 seconds to fire all weapons without ghost heat penalties.
It takes a 2x Clan Large Pulse Laser and 6x Clan ER Medium Laser build a minimum of 1.15 seconds to fire all weapons.

In other words, in the time the Battlemaster does 55 damage to the CT of a Marauder IIC, it has taken 68 damage to a side torso.

The Battlemaster can mitigate that by firing all its Large Pulses at once, but that will trigger ghost heat.
That produces so much heat, that in a brawl situation it is absolutely guaranteed to lose.

Brawling with 5 LPLs is the wrong way to do it anyway...if you are trying to do that, you are doing it wrong.

You can safely fire all 5 LPLs at once with somewhere between 66-71% heat depending upon the map. That is not anywhere near as bad as you make it sound.