118 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Wraith31, on 31 May 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

Show me a 50 ton mech running 2x13 + 6x7 = 68 and we can continue your discussion.

So cherry picking?

Conter - show me a Clan Mech that can't have 6 ERM

[Luminis]

Wraith31, on 31 May 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

TTK should be less IMO. If a main battle tank hits another main battle tank with primary gun, there are at best 2 shots any main battle tank can take. Why should walking battle tanks be different?

Because the source material says so?

[Isolani]

Not exactly sure how to link pictures here, but the Hunchback IIC-A can run 2 X LPL and 6 X ERML. It's hot as hell though. Double coolshot 27 advised.

[kf envy]

Jettrik Ryflix, on 31 May 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

Yes, like El Bandito said. Clan LPL does 13 damage, whereas IS LPL does 11. On top of that, Clan LPL is effective 600m, but IS LPL is effective at 350.

you for got about the burn time. the IS LPL has a short burn time ware the clan LPL has a long burn time. so the IS is able to get more damage in one spot with out splashing it all over like the clan ver

[El Bandito]

Wraith31, on 31 May 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

Show me a 50 ton mech running 2x13 + 6x7 = 68 and we can continue your discussion.

Clan have 65 ton mech that can do 68 laser alpha with no GH penalty--something IS cannot duplicate.

*edit* There you go.

Isolani, on 31 May 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

Not exactly sure how to link pictures here, but the Hunchback IIC-A can run 2 X LPL and 6 X ERML. It's hot as hell though. Double coolshot 27 advised.

kf envy, on 31 May 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

you for got about the burn time. the IS LPL has a short burn time ware the clan LPL has a long burn time. so the IS is able to get more damage in one spot with out splashing it all over like the clan ver

Except you need to get in range to do that. IS LPL is limited, more so after a lot of IS mech's range quirks were taken away.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 May 2017 - 09:47 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Usual Balancing Topic - made by Clams.
What comes next?
Why is the heat for the medium higher?
When IS can fire 27tons Laser without GH why can't Clans fire only 18tons?

Is Mechs can choose to take a STD engine (blatant liar argument no. 1)

[SQW]

OP should just run IS if 3xLPL is so game-breaking.

That 40% range advantage alone makes cLPL double the effectiveness of IS LPL. The reason why you want no GH is the EXACT reason why GH limit should stay on the clan mechs.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

2x IS-LPL reaches to 365m. 22 damage costs 14 heat, 4 slots, and 14 tons. 0.67s burn.
3x C-MPL reaches 330m. 24 damage costs 18 heat, 3 slots, and 6 tons. 0.85s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. The balancing factors are range (C-MPL is slightly shorter), heat, (IS-LPL runs cooler before factoring sinks in), burn time (slightly favors IS-LPL), slots, and tonnage (lopsidedly favors C-MPL).

3x IS-LL reaches to 450m. 27 damage costs 21 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.0s burn.
4x C-ERML reaches to 400m. 28 damage costs 24 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 1.15s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. Again, the balancing factors are range (favoring IS-LL), heat (IS-LL is cooler before sinks), burn time (IS-LL), slots, and tonnage (4t of C-ERML performs like 15t of IS-LL).

The same comparisons apply between IS mediums and Clan smalls:

4x IS-MPL reaches to 220m. 24 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 8 tons. 0.6s burn.
4x C-SPL reaches to 165m. 24 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.75s burn.

4x IS-ML reaches to 270m. 20 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.9s burn.
4x C-ERSL reaches to 200m. 20 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 2 tons. 1.0s burn.

This leaves a few outliers, like C-ERLL, IS-SL, and IS-SPL- and it is not a coincidence that those are the same lasers that are generally regarded as niche or useless. C-ERLL was the strongest weapon in the game until the duration nerf, but is now relegated to a few specialist builds; IS-SPL only shines when boated on something fast with lots of hardpoints, and IS-SL is just plain crap. This leaves two weapons we haven't already covered, and also brings us to the reason why the ghost heat caps are the way they are in the large laser class.

C-LPL is equivalent to the IS-ERLL, not the IS-LPL. This is why:

3x IS-ERLL reaches to 675m. 27 damage costs 24 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.25s burn.
2x C-LPL reaches to 650m. 26 damage costs 20 heat, 4 slots, and 12 tons. 1.12s burn.

That matchup favors the C-LPL in every possible metric except its range profile (1 damage being an insignificant difference considering that 2xC-LPL can fire more and quicker before risking overheat). The reason why you can only fire two C-LPLs while you can fire three IS larges is because two C-LPLs equal three of its nearest IS equivalent, which is the IS-ERLL.

One-for-one ghost heat caps for lasers aren't a thing because one-for-one weapon balance in this class of weaponry isn't a thing.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 01 June 2017 - 12:01 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

OK - Blake told me I need to be more tolerant to those that don't know better, its my duty lead them into the light. (any light )


WVR-6K
10% duration + 15% from the skills = 25% = 0.5sec
the loaded weight are 21tons

vs
HBK-IIC-A
no quirks but a TC6 - for extra range but comparable heat
or
HBK-IIC-A
for more alpha damage
both have a loaded weight of 12tons

beam duration is +15%skills 0.97 for CERM and 0.95 for CLP

Considering the low average timmy - and the ziggzagging beams. (somebody might calculate the shortest possible beam duration - maybe only 0.1sec for a single location)

So the DPBS for the squirked iLP is 22 ~ 2.2 for 0.1sec x3 = 6.6dmg per location for timmy
the DPBS for the squirked CERM is 7.2 ~ 0.72 for 0.1sec x 6 = 4.32dmg per location for timmy
the DPBS for the squirked CLP is 13.68 ~ 1.37 for 0.1sec x 1 + 6CRM = 5.69

Conclusion for this example
the advantage of the ILP at optimal range is the short beam duration this allows it to deal damage faster - very good when a proper aim is not possible, the price is a glass cannon

the CRM + CLP setting run hotter - it does deal less damage when aim is not possible and runs hotter. The better range is countered by less speed. But survival rate is much better.

---- now we can discuss

[Kubernetes]

Because that would allow 3+6 laser vomit on the Clan side, which is an 81 dmg alpha. And remember that these ghost heat limits were put in place before the Clan laser range nerfs. Can you imagine an 81 dmg alpha at 800m+? Yeah.

[Scyther]

There are various reasons. The primary one being that given the source material (BattleTech/MechWarrior RPG), Clan technology (weapons and mechs) is inherently superior to Inner Sphere technology, at least for a good many years after the invasion starts.

In the RPG/novels, this is balanced by much greater numbers on the IS side, home ground defense advantages, Clan combat rituals that favor under-committing forces, shorter supply lines, and plot armor. (Can't outfight the clans? Fine, have a hero crash his aerotech or whatever it is, space fighter, into the bridge of the Clan flagship, killing the Clan commander. At which point the Clans halt everything to have a p1ssing contest. Poof! Deus Ex Mechina)

In an online competitive combat simulator MMO, none of those factors really apply. End result, Clan mechs will be roughly 30% more effective than IS mechs if you just straight-up use original TT (tabletop) game values. Further, the Combat mechanics of an online game tend to do much more damage, more accurately, far faster than the TT allowed for.

So PGI has had to design various factors into the game to retain as much BattleTech 'flavor' as they are able to, while trying to bring IS and Clan technology at least within 'not ridiculously lopsided' range. Since a two-sided fight gets rather dull if nobody plays one side due to significantly worse gear.

Extra GH for Clan LPLs is just one method of paring down the Clan advantage. You can take that away, of course, but then you would need to nerf something else. As it stands, Clan mechs/tech are still easily 15% more effective than IS, if not more.

As for logic? You're playing a sci-fi combat game based on giant machines, fusion engines, and space 'jump' technology that can't even craft decent optics or a rear-view camera. Logic went out the window long ago. You use 'story sense' instead.

[MustrumRidcully]

Why is an IS LPL 1 ton heavier and 1 slot larger than a Clan LPL, when the Clan LPL deals more damage and has more range?

Because someone wanted Clans to have superior tech for the table top game where each player could control multiple units.
However, if you actually have a shooter game where every player steers exactly one mech, this falls apart quickly. You need better balance.

Ghost heat was a terrible way to do it, but it's one fo the tools PGI picked.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 June 2017 - 02:40 AM.

[Dino Might]

Well, you asked us to explain it to you like you're five, so....

Clan lasers are better, so the game limits the number you can use at once to make it more fair.
The game is attempting fairness so more players will want to play.
You are limited in your advantage over other players because the game is not made just for you.

Edited by Dino Might, 01 June 2017 - 02:57 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mortalcoil, on 31 May 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

What is the logic behind clan XL engines requiring both sides to be destroyed. It's illogical for an engine to work when half of it is blown up.

Engine doesn't get half blown up. You have your shielding compromised and it SCRAMS to avoid meltdown. Standard engines are more compact but heavier, XL engines use space magic to be lighter, but that lighter shielding is bulkier in design.

[Khobai]

Quote

CLPL does more damage

except not really because the much longer beam duration makes the damage spread out. so it ends up being far less lethal than the ISLPL despite having higher damage stat. the reality is ISLPL is a broken weapon because of its extremely short beam duration.

when they rebalance energy weapons I expect to see ISLPL get kicked in the nuts. along with CSPL. and the game will be better for it. because those weapons are both way too good.

Quote

Why is an IS LPL 1 ton heavier and 1 slot larger than a Clan LPL, when the Clan LPL deals more damage and has more range?

because ISLPL has a crazy short beam duration that makes it far deadlier than CLPL could ever hope to be.

there are legitimate IS vs Clan complaints but complaining about ISLPL being worse than CLPL isnt one of them. Because ISLPL is easily one of the top 3 weapons in the game right now and far surpasses CLPL in virtually every way. the beam duration is so ridiculously short that its effectively pinpoint frontloaded damage despite being a laser.

now if you wanna complain about CXL, CGauss, CERPPC, or CSPL instead, those are all legit complaints...

Quote

What is the logic behind clan XL engines requiring both sides to be destroyed. It's illogical for an engine to work when half of it is blown up.

The same logic behind why some jet fighters have 2 engines instead of 1 engine.

redundancy. because you can still land the plane on 1 engine. likewise clans designs their engines so they can still function if one side gets destroyed.


although I personally think they should add engine crits to the game to balance ISXL vs CXL better. ISXL, CXL, and LFE should get destroyed if they suffer 4 crit slot destructions. that would allow ISXL to survive a side torso destruction. And since ISXL has 3 crit slots per side torso and CXL has 2 crit slots per side torso, CXL would still be slightly better. But it wouldnt be overwhelmingly better.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2017 - 07:14 AM.

[Alan Davion]

You want ghost heat removed from your super Clan weapons?

Okay, then in trade your super Clan-XL can die from a single side torso loss.

How's that strike you?

[Snazzy Dragon]

Wraith31, on 31 May 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

3x11=33

2x13=26





You are trying too hard to answer a question with a question m8...

Now throw in clan XL, lower slot/tonnage equipment, extended range, and higher average speed

[Felicitatem Parco]

Wraith31, on 31 May 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

I am trying to wrap my head around this, and my hunchie IIC really wants to run 3 clan LPLs...can someone explain what logic is the reason behind this?

Because the Clan LPL has more power, more range, weighs less, and takes up fewer slots. If you cannot wrap your head around that, then I don't think you need to worry about arguing game balance... Leave it to the folks who think that a weapon with more power, more range, and less resource investment should have some sort of downside.

[Karl Streiger]

My friends pls stop using ComStar Technology
Only the cERL and the cERP have less critical space.
The cLP and the iLP use the same critical space.
Pls contact the next bureau of the word to upgrade your CMD

[Zigmund Freud]

Hey, PGI! IS has this one viable weapon system. Nerf pls!