118 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Karl Streiger, on 31 May 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

So cherry picking?

Conter - show me a Clan Mech that can't have 6 ERM

The Adder?

[Trollfeed]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 31 May 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

2x IS-LPL reaches to 365m. 22 damage costs 14 heat, 4 slots, and 14 tons. 0.67s burn.
3x C-MPL reaches 330m. 24 damage costs 18 heat, 3 slots, and 6 tons. 0.85s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. The balancing factors are range (C-MPL is slightly shorter), heat, (IS-LPL runs cooler before factoring sinks in), burn time (slightly favors IS-LPL), slots, and tonnage (lopsidedly favors C-MPL).

3x IS-LL reaches to 450m. 27 damage costs 21 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.0s burn.
4x C-ERML reaches to 400m. 28 damage costs 24 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 1.15s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. Again, the balancing factors are range (favoring IS-LL), heat (IS-LL is cooler before sinks), burn time (IS-LL), slots, and tonnage (4t of C-ERML performs like 15t of IS-LL).

The same comparisons apply between IS mediums and Clan smalls:

4x IS-MPL reaches to 220m. 24 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 8 tons. 0.6s burn.
4x C-SPL reaches to 165m. 24 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.75s burn.

4x IS-ML reaches to 270m. 20 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.9s burn.
4x C-ERSL reaches to 200m. 20 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 2 tons. 1.0s burn.

This leaves a few outliers, like C-ERLL, IS-SL, and IS-SPL- and it is not a coincidence that those are the same lasers that are generally regarded as niche or useless. C-ERLL was the strongest weapon in the game until the duration nerf, but is now relegated to a few specialist builds; IS-SPL only shines when boated on something fast with lots of hardpoints, and IS-SL is just plain crap. This leaves two weapons we haven't already covered, and also brings us to the reason why the ghost heat caps are the way they are in the large laser class.

C-LPL is equivalent to the IS-ERLL, not the IS-LPL. This is why:

3x IS-ERLL reaches to 675m. 27 damage costs 24 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.25s burn.
2x C-LPL reaches to 650m. 26 damage costs 20 heat, 4 slots, and 12 tons. 1.12s burn.

That matchup favors the C-LPL in every possible metric except its range profile (1 damage being an insignificant difference considering that 2xC-LPL can fire more and quicker before risking overheat). The reason why you can only fire two C-LPLs while you can fire three IS larges is because two C-LPLs equal three of its nearest IS equivalent, which is the IS-ERLL.

One-for-one ghost heat caps for lasers aren't a thing because one-for-one weapon balance in this class of weaponry isn't a thing.

I love how this very informative post was completely ignored by the guys who think that IS LPL is comparable weapon to clan LPL. Please look at the weapon profiles, not at weapon names.

[Khobai]

Quote

I love how this very informative post was completely ignored by the guys who think that IS LPL is comparable weapon to clan LPL. Please look at the weapon profiles, not at weapon names.

that post is full of misinformation though.

like trying to say a CERML is equivalent to an ISLL or a CLPL is equivalent to an ISERLL lmao. thier max ranges arnt even close. Clan lasers dont get x2 max range like IS lasers.

for example...

ERLL has a 1350 max range with a lot of IS mechs having an additional 10% range quirk
CLPL only has an 840m max range.

those two weapons arnt equivalent at all. the ERLL outranges the CLPL by a HUGE amount, while the CLPL really only dominates at medium range. the ISLL+quirks is a closer equivalent to the CLPL than the ISERLL is.

With quirks the ISERLL is pretty equivalent to the CERLL though in my experience.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[FupDup]

I'm not sure why people focus so much on Clan vs. IS LPL's anyways. If anything, these two weapons are by far the best example of asymmetrical balance where both are viable weapons with completely different playstyles. This should be the IDEAL way to balance Clans vs. IS.

Most other faction balancing instances in MWO are either a pure upgrade for Clans (e.g. Gauss, ERPPC) or the IS gets a superior but heavier version (e.g. SRMs). That kind of balancing is boring.

[B0oN]

cXL not dying from sidetorso loss is derived straight from tabletop where one had to kill 3 slots of XL engine to make the mech go boom .
cXL´s have 2 slots per sidetorso, whereas isXL´s have 3 of those per side .

Okiedokie ?

[Alan Davion]

The Shortbus, on 01 June 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

cXL not dying from sidetorso loss is derived straight from tabletop where one had to kill 3 slots of XL engine to make the mech go boom .
cXL´s have 2 slots per sidetorso, whereas isXL´s have 3 of those per side .

Okiedokie ?

Were you replying to me by any chance?

[Grus]

Luminis, on 31 May 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

3x 11 = 33
3x 13 = 39

That difference isn't much smaller, is it?

On my cellphone so someone do the math for me please.

33damage per 3lpl but followed up by another 22 for 5 lpl build Battlemaster. Now try that on a mararder, so 39 +26, way higher alpha. And you'll be close to shutting down. Clan heat would spike close to shut down or put you in a position of having to chain fire your weps to keep from shutting down. ( not using cool shot) drop this down to my ebon and it has 2lpl6mls and is a crazy alpha. But I can do it once then either have to burn a coolshot or back off and cool down before I can do it again. (2lpl2med, 4ml fire group)

So the IS can brawl better with a hot build than a clan mech with the similar loadouts is what I'm getting at. But you shouldn't build a clan mech to do what a IS is doing. Is you want IS functionality on a clan mech you're doing it wrong. Just go IS.

[Grus]

By math I mean please list heats. Ty

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

Not very long ago I rocked the Stormcrow I called "welder".
2 Large pulse lasers with 6 ER medium lasers backing it up, all packed in the right part of the mech, turning left side into perfect shield.
Hell, you couldn't shoot your full alpha if you dropped the crucial 3 heat sinks.
But assault being turned into helpless kitten hiding his face in the dirt trying to back away, stucking in his own buddies, turning back on you and shooting the blues hysterically to make his way to safety…
Guess what? It's still possible these days. Actually, even more so with fancy heat gen skills, laser duration skills and coolshot 18 being available from the start.

[Wraith31]

Karl Streiger, on 31 May 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

So cherry picking?

Conter - show me a Clan Mech that can't have 6 ERM

IFR

SHC

ADR

MLX

MDD

ON1-IIC

HGN-IIC

You surely did not think that thru

El Bandito, on 31 May 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Except you need to get in range to do that. IS LPL is limited, more so after a lot of IS mech's range quirks were taken away.

+15% is not enough? That hits to 840m

WrathOfDeadguy, on 31 May 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

2x IS-LPL reaches to 365m. 22 damage costs 14 heat, 4 slots, and 14 tons. 0.67s burn.
3x C-MPL reaches 330m. 24 damage costs 18 heat, 3 slots, and 6 tons. 0.85s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. The balancing factors are range (C-MPL is slightly shorter), heat, (IS-LPL runs cooler before factoring sinks in), burn time (slightly favors IS-LPL), slots, and tonnage (lopsidedly favors C-MPL).

3x IS-LL reaches to 450m. 27 damage costs 21 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.0s burn.
4x C-ERML reaches to 400m. 28 damage costs 24 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 1.15s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. Again, the balancing factors are range (favoring IS-LL), heat (IS-LL is cooler before sinks), burn time (IS-LL), slots, and tonnage (4t of C-ERML performs like 15t of IS-LL).

The same comparisons apply between IS mediums and Clan smalls:

4x IS-MPL reaches to 220m. 24 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 8 tons. 0.6s burn.
4x C-SPL reaches to 165m. 24 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.75s burn.

4x IS-ML reaches to 270m. 20 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.9s burn.
4x C-ERSL reaches to 200m. 20 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 2 tons. 1.0s burn.

This leaves a few outliers, like C-ERLL, IS-SL, and IS-SPL- and it is not a coincidence that those are the same lasers that are generally regarded as niche or useless. C-ERLL was the strongest weapon in the game until the duration nerf, but is now relegated to a few specialist builds; IS-SPL only shines when boated on something fast with lots of hardpoints, and IS-SL is just plain crap. This leaves two weapons we haven't already covered, and also brings us to the reason why the ghost heat caps are the way they are in the large laser class.

C-LPL is equivalent to the IS-ERLL, not the IS-LPL. This is why:

3x IS-ERLL reaches to 675m. 27 damage costs 24 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.25s burn.
2x C-LPL reaches to 650m. 26 damage costs 20 heat, 4 slots, and 12 tons. 1.12s burn.

That matchup favors the C-LPL in every possible metric except its range profile (1 damage being an insignificant difference considering that 2xC-LPL can fire more and quicker before risking overheat). The reason why you can only fire two C-LPLs while you can fire three IS larges is because two C-LPLs equal three of its nearest IS equivalent, which is the IS-ERLL.

One-for-one ghost heat caps for lasers aren't a thing because one-for-one weapon balance in this class of weaponry isn't a thing.

Except you forgot where MPLs only have 70% fall off, not 100% like IS lasers, you wasted a lot of time on a stupid comparison tbh.

Not to mention that those MPLs generate more heat for similar damage at shorter range, and still have longer duration.

Kubernetes, on 01 June 2017 - 12:25 AM, said:

Because that would allow 3+6 laser vomit on the Clan side, which is an 81 dmg alpha. And remember that these ghost heat limits were put in place before the Clan laser range nerfs. Can you imagine an 81 dmg alpha at 800m+? Yeah.

You must mean closer to 450m. Clan mediums cannot even fathom reaching 800m now...if they break 700 they feel like they won the special olympics.

Zigmund Freud, on 01 June 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

Hey, PGI! IS has this one viable weapon system. Nerf pls!

Nowhere did I say nerf...I asked why. That is a tremendous difference.

[Alan Davion]

Wraith31, on 01 June 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

Nowhere did I say nerf...I asked why. That is a tremendous difference.

I believe Zigmund was making that post in jest. But that might just be me.

[Wraith31]

The Shortbus, on 01 June 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

cXL not dying from sidetorso loss is derived straight from tabletop where one had to kill 3 slots of XL engine to make the mech go boom .
cXL´s have 2 slots per sidetorso, whereas isXL´s have 3 of those per side .

Okiedokie ?

Engines have nothing to do with weapons, sorry m8. I think you posted in the wrong thread.

Alan Davion, on 01 June 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

I believe Zigmund was making that post in jest. But that might just be me.

Tone was lost in text I guess.

[Mcgral18]

Wraith31, on 01 June 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Engines have nothing to do with weapons, sorry m8. I think you posted in the wrong thread.



Tone was lost in text I guess.

Balance can't ignore anything
Engine imbalance is MUCH greater than weapon balance

You can make up range
You can't make up dying

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Wraith31, on 01 June 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Engines have nothing to do with weapons

Engines have everything to do with weapons.

Here are two very similar Hunchback configs- at least on paper. One is a flaming pile of garbage because it will die when its side torso goes. The other is a Clan 'Mech. The key difference between them is the engine. In order to not be a deathtrap, the IS Hunchback must run a Standard engine- which means that a viable IS Hunchback config cannot carry a weapon load comparable to the Clan Hunchback. This is what a viable HBK-4P config looks like. Here's another one.

The engine is what makes one the apex medium and the other merely average. Otherwise, they'd be on relatively equal footing- both have a bunch of high mounted energy hardpoints and decent (though not ideal) hitboxes. The IS HBK has some very good quirks... but they aren't enough to make it the equal of its Clan counterpart. That death-proof XL makes all the difference.

[Grus]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Balance can't ignore anything
Engine imbalance is MUCH greater than weapon balance

You can make up range
You can't make up dying

I'm guessing that was about the IS XL. You could take a standard eng.. But that would reduce your speed or weapon load... balance?

[Mcgral18]

Grus, on 01 June 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

I'm guessing that was about the IS XL. You could take a standard eng.. But that would reduce your speed or weapon load... balance?

?

How is that balance?
One dude has almost universally superior weaponry, upgrades AND completely superior engines?


The STD is trash, and just about EVERY Sphere mech who competes with a relative Clam mech needs an isXL
Rarities exist, but are few and far between

The only thing which keeps those mechs afloat is quirks
Faction balance via quirks isn't balance, it's an outright failure of balance

[Cpt Contego]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 31 May 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

2x IS-LPL reaches to 365m. 22 damage costs 14 heat, 4 slots, and 14 tons. 0.67s burn.
3x C-MPL reaches 330m. 24 damage costs 18 heat, 3 slots, and 6 tons. 0.85s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. The balancing factors are range (C-MPL is slightly shorter), heat, (IS-LPL runs cooler before factoring sinks in), burn time (slightly favors IS-LPL), slots, and tonnage (lopsidedly favors C-MPL).

3x IS-LL reaches to 450m. 27 damage costs 21 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.0s burn.
4x C-ERML reaches to 400m. 28 damage costs 24 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 1.15s burn.
These two weapons are therefore roughly analogous in usage. Again, the balancing factors are range (favoring IS-LL), heat (IS-LL is cooler before sinks), burn time (IS-LL), slots, and tonnage (4t of C-ERML performs like 15t of IS-LL).

The same comparisons apply between IS mediums and Clan smalls:

4x IS-MPL reaches to 220m. 24 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 8 tons. 0.6s burn.
4x C-SPL reaches to 165m. 24 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.75s burn.

4x IS-ML reaches to 270m. 20 damage costs 16 heat, 4 slots, and 4 tons. 0.9s burn.
4x C-ERSL reaches to 200m. 20 damage costs 12 heat, 4 slots, and 2 tons. 1.0s burn.

This leaves a few outliers, like C-ERLL, IS-SL, and IS-SPL- and it is not a coincidence that those are the same lasers that are generally regarded as niche or useless. C-ERLL was the strongest weapon in the game until the duration nerf, but is now relegated to a few specialist builds; IS-SPL only shines when boated on something fast with lots of hardpoints, and IS-SL is just plain crap. This leaves two weapons we haven't already covered, and also brings us to the reason why the ghost heat caps are the way they are in the large laser class.

C-LPL is equivalent to the IS-ERLL, not the IS-LPL. This is why:

3x IS-ERLL reaches to 675m. 27 damage costs 24 heat, 6 slots, and 15 tons. 1.25s burn.
2x C-LPL reaches to 650m. 26 damage costs 20 heat, 4 slots, and 12 tons. 1.12s burn.

That matchup favors the C-LPL in every possible metric except its range profile (1 damage being an insignificant difference considering that 2xC-LPL can fire more and quicker before risking overheat). The reason why you can only fire two C-LPLs while you can fire three IS larges is because two C-LPLs equal three of its nearest IS equivalent, which is the IS-ERLL.

One-for-one ghost heat caps for lasers aren't a thing because one-for-one weapon balance in this class of weaponry isn't a thing.

This, This is what people just can't comprehend, +1

[warner2]

Mortalcoil, on 31 May 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

What is the logic behind clan XL engines requiring both sides to be destroyed. It's illogical for an engine to work when half of it is blown up. It is illogical that clan weapons take up less tonnage as well as less slots when on the mech itself it looks identical to the IS version. Why are clanners only allowed to bring 240 tons while IS can bring 265 tons. This is illogical. What are quirks? Quirks are illogical. Why does a futuristic mech have missile technology worse than present day military. Perhaps the simple answer is balance?

BattleTech is illogical and PGi should probably have implemented a loser version of it in the name of FPS (but still stompy robot) goodness.

[Grus]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

?

How is that balance?
One dude has almost universally superior weaponry, upgrades AND completely superior engines?


The STD is trash, and just about EVERY Sphere mech who competes with a relative Clam mech needs an isXL
Rarities exist, but are few and far between

The only thing which keeps those mechs afloat is quirks
Faction balance via quirks isn't balance, it's an outright failure of balance

the std eng increase survivability. If you spread damage right you'll have a crap ton of up available. Also if you lose a st you won't slow down or suffer a cooling penitly, like clan mech's do. But you'd rather be a glass cannon that can burn through things faster and cry about IS XL than use something different.

[Grus]

To put it another way, the new ice ferrit coming out I'll lose a hardpoint in the c.f. to have e cm. Not happy about that but I've been taking my current one out with just 4 Las to get used to the layout. I have to sacrifice firepower for evasion. Kinda like going from a XL to Std eng in IS.