118 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Mortalcoil, on 31 May 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

What is the logic behind clan XL engines requiring both sides to be destroyed. It's illogical for an engine to work when half of it is blown up. It is illogical that clan weapons take up less tonnage as well as less slots when on the mech itself it looks identical to the IS version. Why are clanners only allowed to bring 240 tons while IS can bring 265 tons. This is illogical. What are quirks? Quirks are illogical. Why does a futuristic mech have missile technology worse than present day military. Perhaps the simple answer is balance?

The engine is not destroyed, don't be silly. The stack of fusion reactors that forms the power plant of the mech are always in the CT. XLFE and LFE have shielding that is lighter but impedes on the sides of the mech. Without a good amount of shielding the reactor can't function properly anymore and the mech would cook itself.

Clan weapons are more advanced and use newer materials and technologies. You wouldn't say your gaming PC is worse than a computer made 30 years ago and weighs twice as much. An F35 weighs less than a superhornet, but carries more weapons and fuel.

Quirks are designed improvements on a mech. Not every mech in the lore uses the same weapons. An AC/5, for example, was just an abstraction to represent a series of weapons. It also represents mech that were reinforced with armor or structurally

Edited by Snowbluff, 02 June 2017 - 04:14 AM.

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 01 June 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

How many Clan BatleMechs use STD engines?

...

That's what I thought...

how many IS mechs have the choise of a diffrent eng? That's what I thought.. For the most part we are stuck with what we have.

[El Bandito]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

how many IS mechs have the choise of a diffrent eng? That's what I thought.. For the most part we are stuck with what we have.

Except best Clan mechs do not suffer much from it, while IS got tons of crap mechs, even with the choice of engines. And both IS Std and IS XL sucks compared to CXL.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 June 2017 - 07:22 AM.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Except best Clan mechs do not suffer much from it, while IS got tons of crap mechs, even with the choice of engines. And both IS Std and IS XL sucks compared to CXL.

Battlemaster side HP: currently 137
MAD IIC front CT HP: 180
It's fine.

[Grus]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Except best Clan mechs do not suffer much from it, while IS got tons of crap mechs, even with the choice of engines. And both IS Std and IS XL sucks compared to CXL.

ebon jag? Timberwolf? Mad dog? Hellbringer? Gargole? Can't change them on my viper or Ice Ferrit either. If you're talking about the IIC mech's yeah agreed but they arnt the "best" every time. Unlink how many times I see a Battlemaster or warhammer in fp...speaking of, had a match last night in my maddIIC with Las com of 61 alpha. I was able to sneak up on a w arhammer from behind (I know) and put a full burn into his rear ct... I then watched him turn around and return fire... I killed him after 4med laz later but how in Odin' s name did he survive That? Good luck surviving a shot to the rear ct with is 3lpl fireing at you in a clan mech....

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 02 June 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

Battlemaster side HP: currently 137
MAD IIC front CT HP: 180
It's fine.

Yeah, Battlemaster-2C. While Clans got MAD-IIC, KDK-3, NGyr, HBK-IIC, EBJ, Hellbringer, Arctic Cheetah, Orion-IIC... So fair. Clanners always chant about one particular IS variant.

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

ebon jag? Timberwolf? Mad dog? Hellbringer? Gargole? Can't change them on my viper or Ice Ferrit either. If you're talking about the IIC mech's yeah agreed but they arnt the "best" every time. Unlink how many times I see a Battlemaster or warhammer in fp...speaking of, had a match last night in my maddIIC with Las com of 61 alpha. I was able to sneak up on a w arhammer from behind (I know) and put a full burn into his rear ct... I then watched him turn around and return fire... I killed him after 4med laz later but how in Odin' s name did he survive That? Good luck surviving a shot to the rear ct with is 3lpl fireing at you in a clan mech....

Except Viper and Ferret are still far better than most IS Medium mechs. Same deal with Ebon Jaguar, Timberwolf and Hellbringer, as they are far better than most IS Heavy mechs.

And a Clan Heavy, or even a Medium can survive 3LPL to the rear, BTW.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 June 2017 - 07:36 AM.

[Grus]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

Yeah, Battlemaster. While Clans got MAD-IIC, NGyr, HBK-IIC, EBJ, Hellbringer, Arctic Cheetah, Orion-IIC... So fair.




Except Viper and Ferret are still far better than most IS Medium mechs. Same deal with Ebon Jaguar, Timberwolf and Hellbringer, as they are far better than most IS Heavy mechs.

i dissagre on the meds. And the heavy mech's are fine because we only can bring 1 MAYBE 2 if we bring a very light mech.. to witch we only have 1. IS doesn't even need to bring a light mech and the can still field a assault. If the want to bring a light, and we all know the pirats... they can field 2 assaults. If clans want to do that we HAVE to bring 2 light mechs.. clans have good mech no argument there. And IS have few really good mechs, and again it's funny how fast 5lpl burns through a MADDIIC' S ct... And not shut down...

[Zergling]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

speaking of, had a match last night in my maddIIC with Las com of 61 alpha. I was able to sneak up on a w arhammer from behind (I know) and put a full burn into his rear ct... I then watched him turn around and return fire... I killed him after 4med laz later but how in Odin' s name did he survive That?

Easy; Warhammers have 55 CT structure, so all it needed was 7 points of rear CT armor to survive that alpha.

Note that the Summoner has 55 CT structure too, so it would survive the same shot if it also had at least 7 points of rear CT armor.

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Good luck surviving a shot to the rear ct with is 3lpl fireing at you in a clan mech....

Puhlease, triple Large Pulse only does 33 damage. A Nova has 37 points of CT structure, so could survive that even with 0 rear armor.

[Grus]

@el_bandito to be fair, my ebon jag 2lpl 6ermed build first time out did 1.2k damage in a match. But Odin's Beard does it run hot! I have to run it like alpha, move, pause to finish cooling and alpha again. That takes about 15-20 seconds to do.

But the team I was fighting left me alone to do the work.. If I got charged I would have folded quick due to clans increased heat.

[El Bandito]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

@el_bandito to be fair, my ebon jag 2lpl 6ermed build first time out did 1.2k damage in a match. But Odin's Beard does it run hot! I have to run it like alpha, move, pause to finish cooling and alpha again. That takes about 15-20 seconds to do.

And thanks to 2 slot Clan DHS, you can have 24 DHS to cool off your mech. Meanwhile IS Heavies can only have 16-18 DHS due to its bulk, combined with twice as bulky Endo/Ferro--and that when using fragile IS XL. How is that even fair?

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

i dissagre on the meds. And the heavy mech's are fine because we only can bring 1 MAYBE 2 if we bring a very light mech.. to witch we only have 1. IS doesn't even need to bring a light mech and the can still field a assault. If the want to bring a light, and we all know the pirats... they can field 2 assaults. If clans want to do that we HAVE to bring 2 light mechs.. clans have good mech no argument there. And IS have few really good mechs, and again it's funny how fast 5lpl burns through a MADDIIC' S ct... And not shut down...

1. Your disagreement means nothing cause Ice Ferret is already being used in competitive play.

2. CW is a bad place to talk about balance, since IS is artificially propped up with more tonnage in that mode. Just the fact IS needs a handicap in CW already shows the balance disparity between factions. What about Quick Play-- the mode where overwhelming majority plays, and is affected the most? IS get no handicap there.

5 LPLs take 4 full alphas to burn through MAD-IIC's CT. And if you get your CT cored in a hitbox-friendly mech such as MAD-IIC, then that's player competence issue. I main MAD-IIC, and spreading damage is very easy with that mech.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 June 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Khobai, on 01 June 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

actually thats completely false.

clans save far more tonnage on their much lighter weapons and clan endo/ferro than IS saves using XL vs STD.

especially now that engine decoupling has made larger CXLs not worth taking anymore. they arnt worth the exponential tonnage increase anymore.

CXL is certainly a big part of the imbalance. But its not where most of the clans' extra tonnage is coming from. Its mostly coming from things like CGauss weighing 3 tons less and another like 3 tons from Clan Endo/Ferro being vastly superior to IS Endo/Ferro. Plus the CERML or CSPL are probably the best 1 ton investments in the game.

Point being, IS vs Clans is going to take FAR more than just balancing CXL vs ISXL. CXL is just one part of it. But its not even the biggest part.



Nah id argue that clan tech often being better as well as lighter and taking up less crit slots in addition to clan endo/ferro being way better than the IS equivalent is what screws IS over the most. Plus the fact that omnimechs can combine those advantages with always having ideal hardpoints.

Engine imbalance has become somewhat less of an issue since IS mechs were allowed to keep all their armor/structure quirks and the fact that engine decoupling has massively punished clan mechs investing in larger engines. The biggest problem with IS engines isnt external balance IMO, but rather internal balance: the XL, LFE, and STD just arnt equal choices.

well we dont have LFE yet so that why there is little choice. But i agree 100% with you that the IS STD needs a reason to be brought to battle. Needs a huge health buff when running STD and losing all the Firepower.

The tech being lighter and less crits is 100% necessary anyway, we cant change it or we will kill many Stock Clan loadouts. As much as i would love to see a 1:1 balance for weapons it wont happen and doesnt need to happen. IS can be tough but being able to survive will be the only way mech with lesser weapons will ever get a chance to compete on similar levels. Give them time to get the dmg out.


Hence Engines are the issue, not really weapons per say however engines getting a buff would more then likely warrant a weapon re balance.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

Yeah, Battlemaster-2C. While Clans got MAD-IIC, KDK-3, NGyr, HBK-IIC, EBJ, Hellbringer, Arctic Cheetah, Orion-IIC... So fair. Clanners always chant about one particular IS variant.

There are a bunch of IS mechs with strong bonuses to structure and armor that get immensely tough, like the grasshopper, Orion (the IIC is really tough, but not quite as much), crab. I think running is XLs is a safe bet for a lot more mechs.

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 02 June 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

There are a bunch of IS mechs with strong bonuses to structure and armor that get immensely tough, like the grasshopper, Orion (the IIC is really tough, but not quite as much), crab. I think running is XLs is a safe bet for a lot more mechs.

And? If it comes down to tryhard mode, are you really gonna choose them over Clan alternative? We will see tech disparity soon enough, once 8v8 ranked mode comes out and tryhards pile on it. Let's just pray that the energy rebalance further closes the gap between IS lasers and Clan ones, cause IS small class lasers are plain laughable right now.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 June 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Revis Volek]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

And? If it comes down to tryhard mode, are you really gonna choose them over Clan alternative? I don't think so.

When it comes to light mechs it a toss up the WFL, JR7-F, among others, are pretty solid light mechs again even with IS XL


Every other weight class is pretty much a no brainer.

Edited by Revis Volek, 02 June 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Zergling]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

@el_bandito to be fair, my ebon jag 2lpl 6ermed build first time out did 1.2k damage in a match. But Odin's Beard does it run hot! I have to run it like alpha, move, pause to finish cooling and alpha again. That takes about 15-20 seconds to do.

With 24 double heat sinks, it takes the Ebon Jaguar all of 13.66 seconds to cool off between alphas, on a heat neutral map, even if it has no Cool Run or Heat Generation nodes.

If the Ebon Jaguar has 10% Cool Run and 3% Heat Generation, it only takes 12.04 seconds to cool off between alphas, also on a heat neutral map.

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

But the team I was fighting left me alone to do the work.. If I got charged I would have folded quick due to clans increased heat.

Welcome to high alpha laser boating. IS mechs doing the same thing have the same heat issues, but are forced to be closer due to shorter IS laser range.

Edited by Zergling, 02 June 2017 - 08:34 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

how many IS mechs have the choise of a diffrent eng? That's what I thought.. For the most part we are stuck with what we have.

Good thing that "what you're stuck with" is the best engine option, eh?
[Edit] Clarification - Engine TYPE not engine SIZE/RATING [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 02 June 2017 - 09:14 AM.

[Grus]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

And thanks to 2 slot Clan DHS, you can have 24 DHS to cool off your mech. Meanwhile IS Heavies can only have 16-18 DHS due to its bulk, combined with twice as bulky Endo/Ferro--and that when using fragile IS XL. How is that even fair?




1. Your disagreement means nothing cause Ice Ferret is already being used in competitive play.

2. CW is a bad place to talk about balance, since IS is artificially propped up with more tonnage in that mode. Just the fact IS needs a handicap in CW already shows the balance disparity between factions. What about Quick Play-- the mode where overwhelming majority plays, and is affected the most? IS get no handicap there.

5 LPLs take 4 full alphas to burn through MAD-IIC's CT. And if you get your CT cored in a hitbox-friendly mech such as MAD-IIC, then that's player competence issue. I main MAD-IIC, and spreading damage is very easy with that mech.

it is easy to spread no question, but the fact that PvP good vs good, the Battlemaster will come out on top, shield arms and better rate of fire and higher HP in the Battlemaster allows the pilot to dictate where he takes damage. If the clan pilot wants to do a full burn into his target spot then he has to wait for the Battlemaster to present it. And that will only happen when the Battlemaster is ready to pump 50+ damage into the ct in less time then it takes me to fire, recharge fire again and shutdown. Because of overheat. (Brawl situation.) The option is never get in brawl range and out fraud at range. But again maps arnt big enough and the range difference isn't big enough and the mech's arnt fast enough to take real advantage of that. So it's down to the brawl.

Add in Way to many corridors and cover..

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 02 June 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Good thing that "what you're stuck with" is the best engine option, eh?

not really there are times I'd rather drop the eng size to increase weapon payload, you know, that option EVERY IS mech has...

[Revis Volek]

Jay Leon Hart, on 02 June 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Good thing that "what you're stuck with" is the best engine option, eh?

Clan mechs tend to go big but there are a few undersized ones too.


Going fast is good for brawl builds and such. But, for example, the EXE, GAR, and even the HGN IIC could become fantastic mechs if we could drop or raise the engine sizes. HGN IIC literally has like 2 builds that work because of low engine cap.


They are certainly all workable but not the best at all.

Edited by Revis Volek, 02 June 2017 - 09:02 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 02 June 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

not really there are times I'd rather drop the eng size to increase weapon payload, you know, that option EVERY IS mech has...

I'm talking about engine type, not engine size.

Revis Volek, on 02 June 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Clan mechs tend to go big but there are a few undersized ones too.


Going fast is good for brawl builds and such. But, for example, the EXE, GAR, and even the HGN IIC could become fantastic mechs if we could drop or raise the engine sizes. HGN IIC literally has like 2 builds that work because of low engine cap.


They are certainly all workable but not the best at all.

As above