422 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Lorcryst NySell, on 01 June 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'll have to disagree with you on that point.

Balancing from the upper level leads to powercreep.

So if you want to balance from the bottom, LRMs are crazy OP and need to be either driven into the ground or everything else needs to be buffed like crazy to compensate.

[VanillaG]

Xiphias, on 01 June 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

LRMs are broken at a mechanics level. They are pretty much guaranteed to either be useless or insanely overpowered. The problem being that if you buff them to the point where they are strong against good players they will completely destroy bad players. Unless they change the core mechanic I don't see how they can fix LRMs.

Like many players you make the false assumption that comp players haven't tried LRMs. We have. After the skill tree dropped my unit had members who went out and did their due diligence and tested LRMs. The result was that they still weren't worth taking competitively. It's not a stigma that prevents competitive players from taking LRMs and if you think it is you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how these players think.

You don't see them in comp matches because players test these things in private lobbies against other teams or internally. This isn't pugs. You don't try a brand new untested strategy in a world championship match. You test strats in private lobbies, find the meta that works the best, and then execute tried and true methods as best you can.

Not being as good as PPFLD or Laser Vomit in the comp scene does not mean that they are broken at the mechanic level. It appears that comp scene has devolved around pinpoint damage and is ignoring spread damage weapons because pinpoint allows quicker kills.

The simple solution to not seeing LRMs in comp play is to require a certain number of LRM tubes on a team. You already have class or tonnage limits so it should be relatively easy to implement build rules similar to NASCAR. If you required comp teams to actually use LRMs you would get better feedback about the LRM mechanics than just "they suck compared to other types of weapons." and you would see a change in tactics to incorporate LRMs.

[Antares102]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

No, they aren't shaping anything.

I am tier 5 because my stats are archived after not playing the game for three years due to real life. I have more experience in this game then you do and I started with Closed Beta. I would kindly suggest you accord people respect because they deserve it. I don't care if you're tier 1 and got carried there because KDR and other metrics doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is Win/Loss. My Win/Loss as drop commander is 90%. Can you beat that? I doubt it.

I lead the unit Black Outlaws to the following results in Tukayyid 2:




This was during Tukayyid 1:


Where we were only 12 active players and also had a 90% win rate.
Guess who did the drop lead?

Now its your turn to prove your assertions with evidence Mr Tier 5 I won 90% of the games.

Furthermore I'll offer you this:
1vs1 Best of 5
If you win I will pay for a mech pack of your choice.
If I win I will taste the sweet tears of your defeat only.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Xiphias, on 01 June 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

This forum is general discussion, for all players, competitive or not. That said, competitive players have a more holistic understanding of how that game works. Comp players also play in solo and group queue. Pure puggers don't play in competitive settings. Why would you balance around players who only have half the picture? Comp players want the game as a whole to be balanced. For this to happen the game needs to be balanced from the top down.

Pug players miss the big picture because they don't see how mechanics can be exploited in an organized environment. PGI has stated that competitive play is important to them and are introducing a competitive queue. If they are going to do this they have to balance the game at a competitive level and for that level of balancing you need to listen to competitive players. If a player hasn't played competitively they can't have an informed opinion on competitive balance and therefore they opinion is basically worthless because the competitive setting is so different.

Way to put yourself up on that pedestal there. No, competitive players do not have a holistic understanding of the game. If they did then they would be arguing the merits of combined arms and the use of tactics. They don't. They are all about PPFLD and the depth of their tactics is to form a firing line in the hope the other team walks into it. Yeah, we're talking comp players being at the tactical level of Napoleonics while other players are at the level of modern combined arms with in depth tactics and strategies. Do you need help patting yourself on the back or do you have it?

[Burke IV]

Is it a competetive solo que? Oh i hope so, might get me and my LRMs back after all

[Lorcryst NySell]

I'm not worrying about T1 comp play. Could not care less, in fact.

If people find their fun in spending countless hours devising the Most Optimal Overpowered Method to Win At All Cost, more power to them. I just find that boring.

I already stare at excell sheets and optimizations 8 hours per day, I want to shut down my brain and have fun in my games.

I honestly think that "entitled top comp elitists" are ruining the game for new players more than potatoes ... against a "top player", your survival chances as a newbie are virtually nil. So you get wrecked. Again and again. Like me in my first 200 matches.

That is NOT FUN. And most young gamers will go away if they are not having fun. Only Living Fossils like me will stay, bite the bullet, won't care about stats and still try to have a relaxing evening.

And I can have fun and still worry and debate about balance and weapon systems. Those two are not exclusive.

Yes, some opinions, when backed by facts, scientific methods, repeatable results etc are indeed more solid than others based on pure conjecture. Doesn't change the fact that I can voice my opinions, discuss, debate, see the light (or not) and have a grand old time doing that too.

I find it funny that those "top comp players" DON'T post on these forums ... like 90% of the player base by the way ...

[Xiphias]

Burke IV, on 01 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Is it a competetive solo que? Oh i hope so, might get me and my LRMs back after all

No, it's an 8v8 group queue to seed teams for the world championship.

[Antares102]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

No, competitive players do not have a holistic understanding of the game. If they did then they would be arguing the merits of combined arms and the use of tactics. They don't.

OMG... this is so great. Have you even focking seen the runner ups to the world championships?
How much tactics they used to spread damage over their entire team, to relieve their comrades, to pressure the enemy team into movements and decisions? Claiming that competitive players have no sense for tactics makes you so much out of touch it's not even funny any more.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Antares102, on 01 June 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I lead the unit Black Outlaws to the following results in Tukayyid 2:




This was during Tukayyid 1:


Where we were only 12 active players and also had a 90% win rate.
Guess who did the drop lead?

Now its your turn to prove your assertions with evidence Mr Tier 5 I won 90% of the games.

Furthermore I'll offer you this:
1vs1 Best of 5
If you win I will pay for a mech pack of your choice.
If I win I will taste the sweet tears of your defeat only.

Yay nice job did you want a cookie? Yeah let's pull out Tukkayyid that is designed for comp play and where the depth of your tactics is form a firing line and hope the enemy comes this way. Oh, btw your stats show only an 86.6% W/L. No rounding up for ya.

Yes, I can prove it through several eye witnesses plus there is the matter of my stats as well as my post history on the forum going all the way back to the start of Open Beta. Imagine that. I'd say look at my posts during CB, but those got nuked.



If you remove all the PUG drops I did which account for the bulk of my losses then you can see I'm actually pretty good. My W/L is right up there in the 90% range. I was in the top tiers under the ELO system. Funny how that works out hmm? Just because back then we didn't have the shiny wittle button that has our tier like you guys do now, but you don't see me whining about any weapon system do you? Nope, because every weapon is valid as is every tactic.

How many egress points are there on Forest Colony to the enemy's base? How many places can you bottleneck and bring LRMs to bear on the same map? How would you employ scouts and role warfare on that map? What force comp would you use on that map using all of the available weapon systems for either Clan or IS (Yes you have to use all of them to build a force.)

[FuhNuGi]

VanillaG, on 01 June 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Not being as good as PPFLD or Laser Vomit in the comp scene does not mean that they are broken at the mechanic level. It appears that comp scene has devolved around pinpoint damage and is ignoring spread damage weapons because pinpoint allows quicker kills.

The simple solution to not seeing LRMs in comp play is to require a certain number of LRM tubes on a team. You already have class or tonnage limits so it should be relatively easy to implement build rules similar to NASCAR. If you required comp teams to actually use LRMs you would get better feedback about the LRM mechanics than just "they suck compared to other types of weapons." and you would see a change in tactics to incorporate LRMs.

Wow Vanilla... interesting idea.
I see value in your opinion, on so many points.
Very constructive.
THIS is how to use the forum bro... thanks

I watch the International Race of Champions, where race drivers from around the world compete in identically prepared cars. The race is a test of the skill of the driver, not the skill of the car, team or mechanical crew.
If there was a bracket for this sort of thing (here are the builds to choose from, requirements are [insert current challenge], shuffle your team into the right mechs for best effect), you could get much better feedback, as well as the "viewers" watching the LRMs being used by effective players... I see the benefit, but unfortunately, we just might be wishing in the wind.

Nice idea though bud!

[BrotherEJ]

Antares102, on 01 June 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I lead the unit Black Outlaws to the following results in Tukayyid 2:

I would love to see a dueling mode for MWO. But I think you would have to be in at least the same tonnage. Back in the beta, when the teams, would be unbalanced, everyone would get in a circle an two at a time would duel. good times good times.

As to competitive play....make it open to everyone but give a competitive mmr to better balance matchmaking.

[Antares102]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yay nice job did you want a cookie? Yeah let's pull out Tukkayyid that is designed for comp play and where the depth of your tactics is form a firing line and hope the enemy comes this way. Oh, btw your stats show only an 86.6% W/L. No rounding up for ya.

Yes, I can prove it through several eye witnesses plus there is the matter of my stats as well as my post history on the forum going all the way back to the start of Open Beta. Imagine that. I'd say look at my posts during CB, but those got nuked.



If you remove all the PUG drops I did which account for the bulk of my losses then you can see I'm actually pretty good. My W/L is right up there in the 90% range. I was in the top tiers under the ELO system. Funny how that works out hmm? Just because back then we didn't have the shiny wittle button that has our tier like you guys do now, but you don't see me whining about any weapon system do you? Nope, because every weapon is valid as is every tactic.

How many egress points are there on Forest Colony to the enemy's base? How many places can you bottleneck and bring LRMs to bear on the same map? How would you employ scouts and role warfare on that map? What force comp would you use on that map using all of the available weapon systems for either Clan or IS (Yes you have to use all of them to build a force.)

LRMs are not valid on any map if you play a competitive team. On this I bet 1000 bucks.

BTW what about my offer?
1vs1 Best of 5
If you win I will pay for a mech pack of your choice.
If I win I will taste the sweet tears of your defeat only.

BTW2:


Tiny little amount of games you have played sir.
And I have to stress that I mostly played FW.

Edited by Antares102, 01 June 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Antares102, on 01 June 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

OMG... this is so great. Have you even focking seen the runner ups to the world championships?
How much tactics they used to spread damage over their entire team, to relieve their comrades, to pressure the enemy team into movements and decisions? Claiming that competitive players have no sense for tactics makes you so much out of touch it's not even funny any more.

How many whiners of LRMs do you see that are the majority of so-called competitive players? I'd say about 90% of them with the standard tear filled cry being that LRMs are no skill and that they can't shoot back because they're hiding behind cover. Yeah, that tells me all I need to know about so-called comp players. We had them back in Closed and Open Beta too when they were doing Run Hot and Die competitive matches.

Antares102, on 01 June 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

LRMs are not valid on any map if you play a competitive team. On this I bet 1000 bucks.

BTW what about my offer?
1vs1 Best of 5
If you win I will pay for a mech pack of your choice.
If I win I will taste the sweet tears of your defeat only.

You failed, so no wager and I'm going to ignore everything you've said.

EDIT: Yes, because PGI had a tendency to wipe stats every now and then when there was a major change to the game. This is my fault somehow.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 01 June 2017 - 10:07 AM.

[sycocys]

Post that video of you getting insta ct'd again!

[Lorcryst NySell]

BrotherEJ, on 01 June 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

I would love to see a dueling mode for MWO. But I think you would have to be in at least the same tonnage. Back in the beta, when the teams, would be unbalanced, everyone would get in a circle an two at a time would duel. good times good times.

As to competitive play....make it open to everyone but give a competitive mmr to better balance matchmaking.

I think it's possible in Private Lobbies ... there is that "Steiner Collyseum" map, and you can set things to be 1vs1 with restrictions too.

One thing I would love to see on that map during duels is those elitist top comp players being forced to use stock mechs, the same on both sides, with a mix of non-PPFLD weapons.

That would be a true test of skill, in my humble opinion.

[James The Fox Dixon]

sycocys, on 01 June 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

Post that video of you getting insta ct'd again!

I never got ct'd and died. I did get shot there, but I never died.

[Vxheous]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Way to put yourself up on that pedestal there. No, competitive players do not have a holistic understanding of the game. If they did then they would be arguing the merits of combined arms and the use of tactics. They don't. They are all about PPFLD and the depth of their tactics is to form a firing line in the hope the other team walks into it. Yeah, we're talking comp players being at the tactical level of Napoleonics while other players are at the level of modern combined arms with in depth tactics and strategies. Do you need help patting yourself on the back or do you have it?

The more you post, the more clueless you show yourself to be. Comp play has far more tactics than forming up a firing line. Considering most comp matches take place in conquest mode, forming up two lines and hoping won't get you very far. Top comp teams spend countless hours doing walkthroughs on each map, finding the best ways to have map/lane coverage, optimal routes of approach to caps, optimal timing for said mechs to get to cap, how to properly gain 3 cap, or at least gain 2 cap and pressure theta, and then the optimal builds for each mech that they'll bring to execute the strategy that the team has decided on. On top of all of that, they will play scrims against other top teams to test their theory-crafting, and refine before an actual comp match.

Top comp teams will know where/how you will poke from certain cover because they've explored all all terrain. They know that you will expose parts of your mech when you walk from certain cover. They know to expect you from certain areas based on your spawn point at start of match. There is so much attention to detail that you trivialise to "forming a firing line". You have no clue.

Edit: and no, I don't play comp (I've only ever done one season of MRBC, and my team won our division), but I completely understand how much time and effort teams have put in and how much understanding of the game/mechanics/balance issues that they gain from all that they do.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 01 June 2017 - 10:14 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

The more you post, the more clueless you show yourself to be. Comp play has far more tactics than forming up a firing line. Considering most comp matches take place in conquest mode, forming up two lines and hoping won't get you very far. Top comp teams spend countless hours doing walkthroughs on each map, finding the best ways to have map/lane coverage, optimal routes of approach to caps, optimal timing for said mechs to get to cap, how to properly gain 3 cap, or at least gain 2 cap and pressure theta, and then the optimal builds for each mech that they'll bring to execute the strategy that the team has decided on. On top of all of that, they will play scrims against other top teams to test their theory-crafting, and refine before an actual comp match. You have no clue at all

And you have no clue about role warfare or this game in general if all you can do is direct fire weapons. Cry more because my coffee cup for tears is a little low.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

The more you post, the more clueless you show yourself to be. Comp play has far more tactics than forming up a firing line. Considering most comp matches take place in conquest mode, forming up two lines and hoping won't get you very far. Top comp teams spend countless hours doing walkthroughs on each map, finding the best ways to have map/lane coverage, optimal routes of approach to caps, optimal timing for said mechs to get to cap, how to properly gain 3 cap, or at least gain 2 cap and pressure theta, and then the optimal builds for each mech that they'll bring to execute the strategy that the team has decided on. On top of all of that, they will play scrims against other top teams to test their theory-crafting, and refine before an actual comp match. You have no clue at all

How is all of that playing a game for fun ?

Looks like work, and a hard and painfull one too ...

[Antares102]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

You failed, so no wager and I'm going to ignore everything you've said.

EDIT: Yes, because PGI had a tendency to wipe stats every now and then when there was a major change to the game. This is my fault somehow.

Just as expected ... another coward.
None of you big mouth ever accepted my challange.
At first they claim superior game sense and then hide when it comes to prove it.
Good riddance.