94 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 05 June 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

MCII > Nightstar. Not even a contest. Unless the IS mech gets good quirks.

You must be one of those Clans OP type of people.

As for myself, maybe because I play both sides, I think it is going to be a virtual toss up that depends very much on what mobility stats PGI decides these mechs should end up with.

As for advantages and disadvantages:

The Madcat II gets the benefit of using the smaller, less weight intensive Clan weapons and equipment and can mount a bigger engine, however those weapons are also very hot in comparison to IS equipment. Also the Clan's aren't really getting all that much in the way of new tech either. Also if you chose to use missiles, you dramatically increase your targetable surface area as well as give up you hull down firing abilities which could dramatically effect your firepower options.

The Nightstar on the other hand gets to take advantage of much cooler weapons and with the new tech dropping, many of the disadvantages that IS mechs had, such as range, will be virtually eliminated. Further, with all the new tech coming to the IS, IS mech will become a min/maxers dream because now there will be a weapon to fit just about any tonnage or crit space requirement you may have giving you unparalleled flexibility in your builds. Also the Night Star will often have superior hull down capability without having to eliminate missiles from its weapons options.

Overall, from a power level, I think they are going to be very equal again, unless PGI fiddles with the mobility stats making one more agile over the other.

[Reno Blade]

I'm usually not very good in assault mechs, but the Nightstar is one of my favorites, because I love all the Marauder clones nearly as much as the Marauder itself.

The MadCat mkII is my substitude for the Blood Asp, but it's also very nice looking Assault.

That said, I will get both, but the Nightstar is looking better for me

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 05 June 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

You must be one of those Clans OP type of people.

As for myself, maybe because I play both sides, I think it is going to be a virtual toss up that depends very much on what mobility stats PGI decides these mechs should end up with.

As for advantages and disadvantages:

The Madcat II gets the benefit of using the smaller, less weight intensive Clan weapons and equipment and can mount a bigger engine, however those weapons are also very hot in comparison to IS equipment. Also the Clan's aren't really getting all that much in the way of new tech either. Also if you chose to use missiles, you dramatically increase your targetable surface area as well as give up you hull down firing abilities which could dramatically effect your firepower options.

The Nightstar on the other hand gets to take advantage of much cooler weapons and with the new tech dropping, many of the disadvantages that IS mechs had, such as range, will be virtually eliminated. Further, with all the new tech coming to the IS, IS mech will become a min/maxers dream because now there will be a weapon to fit just about any tonnage or crit space requirement you may have giving you unparalleled flexibility in your builds. Also the Night Star will often have superior hull down capability without having to eliminate missiles from its weapons options.

Overall, from a power level, I think they are going to be very equal again, unless PGI fiddles with the mobility stats making one more agile over the other.

I only speak from what I know, while you are conjecturing about new tech of which the stats are not certain. As is no Nstar build can be as effective as MCII' s 2x Cgauss + 2x CERPPC build. That is the fact.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 05 June 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I only speak from what I know, while you are conjecturing about new tech of which the stats are not certain. As is no Nstar build can be as effective as MCII' s 2x Cgauss + 2x CERPPC build. That is the fact.

Since your talking about a mech that is coming out some months after the new tech has released, it is absolutely imperative to conjecture about how that new tech is going to effect IS mechs moving forward. I mean you just have to go over the Sarna and pull up the weapons charts to see how these new weapons compare to what is currently in game to get a rough idea how they will perform once they make it into game. Also it doesn't take much imagination to understand that tech that was placed in game by the TT creators designed to equalize the power between the Clans and IS and make for more balanced game play is going to have a huge impact on the performance of IS machines resulting in a substantial buff to virtually all of them. Hell just upgrading from MLs to ER MLs will be a huge buff and we are talking one weapon.

Lastly, your talk about effectiveness of the mech and build. Personally I don't find the Dual Gauss, Dual ER PPC build to be all that effective but then again I only PUG like 90% of the other players in this game. That build seems to work great in a structured team environment where you can count on your teammates to have your back and compensate for your short range brawling limitation. However, I haven't really seen it work all that well in the Solo Pug que where you only have yourself and your personal skills to keep you up an running in a match. In that environment, I don't see any reason why the Nightstar should be any less effective than the Mad Cat II.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 05 June 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

Since your talking about a mech that is coming out some months after the new tech has released, it is absolutely imperative to conjecture about how that new tech is going to effect IS mechs moving forward. I mean you just have to go over the Sarna and pull up the weapons charts to see how these new weapons compare to what is currently in game to get a rough idea how they will perform once they make it into game. Also it doesn't take much imagination to understand that tech that was placed in game by the TT creators designed to equalize the power between the Clans and IS and make for more balanced game play is going to have a huge impact on the performance of IS machines resulting in a substantial buff to virtually all of them. Hell just upgrading from MLs to ER MLs will be a huge buff and we are talking one weapon.

Lastly, your talk about effectiveness of the mech and build. Personally I don't find the Dual Gauss, Dual ER PPC build to be all that effective but then again I only PUG like 90% of the other players in this game. That build seems to work great in a structured team environment where you can count on your teammates to have your back and compensate for your short range brawling limitation. However, I haven't really seen it work all that well in the Solo Pug que where you only have yourself and your personal skills to keep you up an running in a match. In that environment, I don't see any reason why the Nightstar should be any less effective than the Mad Cat II.

I pug in solo-q with PPFLD KDK-3 and NGyr, and their performance is excellent. No reason to think MCII will not be the same.

[Valhallan]

Viktor Drake, on 05 June 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

Since your talking about a mech that is coming out some months after the new tech has released, it is absolutely imperative to conjecture about how that new tech is going to effect IS mechs moving forward. I mean you just have to go over the Sarna and pull up the weapons charts to see how these new weapons compare to what is currently in game to get a rough idea how they will perform once they make it into game.

For nightstar purposes, which is ballistics and energy, the only tech that is relevant is probably LFE and maybe snubnose/heavy ppc's, that's it. RAC's are basically how CUAC's work now (just up the calibre, rac/2 is between uac5 & 10 rac/5 is between uac 10 & 20) except with even more pellets making each more than the CUAC20 which is barely even used specifically because of too many pellets. The alternate gausses are TRAPS barring SERIOUS fiddling on the LGauss stats, even more extreme fiddling will be needed to save the HGauss unless PGI breaks new ground and modifies crit reqs to 10 slots to allow LFE. ER weapons will have worse heat to damage ratios than the clans (5/5 ERM? bleh) while still being stuck with 3 crit IS HS and 14 slot endo. Snubnose will replace regular ppc IF the optimum is far enough (for 1 ton per ppc savings) if not Heavy will take the place IF it's still 15 damage and can fire 2 without GH (because of better damage to tonnage). They will augment the NS a bit, but not nearly enough unless it's got quarks of it's own, if the NS is quarkless then the MK2 is definitely superior, C-XL being definitely superior to LFE, same with C-gauss, the snub-ppc changes only cover about the savings of 1 C-Gauss, H-ppc would make the NS arguably better at single poking because 60ppfld, but it would be significantly inferior in heating/mobility (gonna have to run 300 LFE, 95 tonner slow as feth) and would likely not be able to hide fast enough to prevent return fire.

The upcoming techs were not placed to "equalize" the power between Clans and IS in TT, while this is true in LORE, in TT only the HPPC was actually helpful giving IS an energy headcap weapon, the IS tech 1 ML remained the gold standard for IS weapons. The actual method that the TT makers used to try to balance Clans vs IS power was battlevalue, and as so many can tell you this wasn't sufficient if min-maxing with custom designs (JJ Clan er-med pulse +tc cheddar, c-gauss + cerppc+tc headhunters), it was only helpful in stock-play (probably due to lack of data on their end, MWO being online "could" do it right being quickly revise-able and supplying numerous data points, but well considering how other things have gone....).

[MadRover]

Mad Cat mk 2 for me. Best part is I'm going to be using all of them because I really do love that mech. Maybe I'll pick up the nightstar once I figure out a 400 engine build for it but the Mad Cat Mk2 is just one of those traditional mechs I must play and binge buy because reasons.

Did anyone forget to mention it's going to be a very good gauss mech? Maybe the only mech that will see heavy usage of the gauss rifles because that's how it was built in the lore? Pretty sure gauss rifles will see more usage. Not a bad thing imho.

Edit: stupid autocorrect

Edited by MadRover, 06 June 2017 - 06:41 AM.

[TheArisen]

MadRover, on 06 June 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

Mad Cat mk 2 for me. Best part is I'm going to be using all of them because I really do love that mech. Maybe I'll pick up the nightstar once I figure out a 400 engine build for it but the Mad Cat Mk2 is just one of those traditional mechs I must play and binge buy because reasons.

Did anyone forget to mention it's going to be a very good gauss mech? Maybe the only mech that will see heavy usage of the gauss rifles because that's how it was built in the lore? Pretty sure gauss rifles will see more usage. Not a bad thing imho.

Edit: stupid autocorrect

I don't think the best Nightstar builds will use a 400, 375 at most because unlike the Wubmaster & Wubshee it has heavy ballistics. I think 300 - 325 will be the sweet spot.

[CK16]

You know....that is a good point....with IS battlemechs in game currently based out of the 3025 era....Gauss Rifles would have been none existent. Ignoring clans flexibility in Omni mechs and just decent layouts for some. (Kdk3...) the IS has not had a mech centered around twin gauss added till now...in a way it makes sense why this meta was not common before..

[Joe Decker]

I am sure the Mad Cat MKII will be a great Assault, maybe the best in the Game after Release, yet I will align with the IS Underdog. Amazing Design for the Nightstar btw.

[El Bandito]

CK16, on 06 June 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

You know....that is a good point....with IS battlemechs in game currently based out of the 3025 era....Gauss Rifles would have been none existent. Ignoring clans flexibility in Omni mechs and just decent layouts for some. (Kdk3...) the IS has not had a mech centered around twin gauss added till now...in a way it makes sense why this meta was not common before..

What are you talking about? Dual Gauss Catapult was popular way back in 2013 thanks to PGI's decision to implement non-sized hardpoints.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 June 2017 - 02:12 AM.

[LordDante]

why nightstar ? i want a marauderII 100tons dfa !

[Valhallan]

Marauder 2 will just be a sadmech, hoverjets? bleh gauss on ST? ewww. The only fun variant will be the 4H with trades the lone lbx-10 for RL180

Edited by Valhallan, 09 June 2017 - 03:19 AM.

[Xetelian]

I'm pondering this as well, I really want the Nightstar because I love IS Assault mechs but the MKII has a much better hero and getting $20 for 3 and $15 for the Hero is cheaper than Collector's edition Nightstar by $5 and you get similar 30% cBill mechs.


Arrrrrrgh I been flipping coins over this all night.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 09 June 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

What are you talking about? Dual Gauss Catapult was popular way back in 2013 thanks to PGI's decision to implement non-sized hardpoints.

He's talking about the lore. K2 was centered around PPCs, not Gauss Rifles.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 June 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

He's talking about the lore. K2 was centered around PPCs, not Gauss Rifles.

I see.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Metus regem, on 03 June 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

Nightstar as well, the Mk II doesn't do it for me, it's a 90t platform that should've been an 85t Omni platform to keep in line with it's predecessor.

Why would you want to nerf it by being 5 tons lighter and an Omnimech?

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 09 June 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

I see.

The ports in the armour, mounts, ammo feeds, power cables, targeting software and ammo bins in the MWO Cat K2 that were designed around 1000lb 20mm rapid fire cannons are magically able to adapt to fit 15t Gauss Rifles is pretty amusing when you think about it.

[El Bandito]

Metus regem, on 09 June 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

The ports in the armour, mounts, ammo feeds, power cables, targeting software and ammo bins in the MWO Cat K2 that were designed around 1000lb 20mm rapid fire cannons are magically able to adapt to fit 15t Gauss Rifles is pretty amusing when you think about it.

Unlimited customization is part of the charm of MW games, though I always wished that PGI had implemented Sized Hardpoints for MWO. Makes each variants more unique, rather than carbon copies with one or two hardpoint difference.

[Metus regem]

xXBagheeraXx, on 09 June 2017 - 08:44 AM, said:

Why would you want to nerf it by being 5 tons lighter and an Omnimech?

Lore?

In Lore, Omni's are much better than battlemechs, this is due to the ability to quickly change parts, configure for mission profile and repair in the field... You know that whole logistical side of conflicts things that MWO doesn't touch... It was something that always puzzled me about the Mk. II, as in if CDS actually wanted to sell it to the Clans as their primary market, it would've been an 85t Omni-mech, as it stands by being a 90t Battlemech, thus inferior to an 85t platform it was clear that they never meant the Clans to be primary buyers of it.

Also in TT if you want a 4/6/3 assault mech jumper, 85t is way, way more weight efficient,,,

85T platform:
Endo Steel internals : 4.5t
Cockpit: 3t
Gyro: 4t
340 series XL Engine: 13.5t
Jump Jets: 3t
DHS: 4t
Armour: 13t FF
ERML: 4x1t
Gauss Rifles: 2x12t
Ammo Gauss: 4x1t
LRM/10: 2x2.5t
Ammo LRM: 2x1t

Total Weight: 84t

90t Platform:
Endo Steel internals : 4.5t
Cockpit: 3t
Gyro: 4t
360 series XL Engine: 16.5t
Jump Jets: 6t
DHS: 4t
Armour: 13t FF
ERML: 4x1t
Gauss Rifles: 2x12t
Ammo Gauss: 4x1t
LRM/10: 2x2.5t
Ammo LRM: 2x1t

Total weight 90t

Total difference in damage absorption: 8 points (2 in CT, 1 in LA/LT/LL/RL/RT/RA) more internal structure in the 90t platform, note both are under armoured. 90t platform has 89% armour coverage, 85t platform has 94% armour coverage.

So as you can see, at 85t you actually have the option to take another DHS, add a little more ammo, add a 4th JJ or up armour to 100%, giving you 263 points of armour over the stock 249 points, or 14 points more damage abortion, more than making up the advantage found in the 90t platforms internal structure damage absorption.

So I hope that this all makes a little sense as to why I would "nerf" it by 5t, to make it better....

El Bandito, on 09 June 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

Unlimited customization is part of the charm of MW games, though I always wished that PGI had implemented Sized Hardpoints for MWO. Makes each variants more unique, rather than carbon copies with one or two hardpoint difference.

I also would've liked armour cap differences between units as well. No sense in a Catapult having the same armour cap as a much more heavily armoured mech like a Thunderbolt...

Edited by Metus regem, 09 June 2017 - 10:07 AM.