62 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

[ingramli]

potato like me hardly earn enough C-Bills to buy any new mech after spending on purchasing SPs under the current grinding system.....adding a R&R will completely eliminate the need of buying extra mech bays, this will certainly hits PGI's economy hard as fewer buy mech bays and mastery packs after removing the rule of three requirement already. So on both potato/casual players and PGI' view, bringing back R&R is simply a big NO.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Gwei Loong, on 09 June 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

Ok that makes sense. I was not there so I'll forget about it because this seems like it would be a thing. No one is in favor of the poor getting poorer.

I and others were there. Here's three examples of why R&R was removed from my personal closed beta screenshot collection.







Yes, missile ammo cost more then a cored out XL300 engine. Yes, it really killed ammo dependent players since if you lost then you would go into the red and steadily lose money until you were broke.

[Mechteric]

Hahah no. Seriously just drop it already, it doesn't work in a PUG environment unless there's some kind of special hardcore mode.


Let me iterate why it was bad:
1) Punished those who brawl and push rather than hide and snipe
2) Punished only ammo based builds, further cementing dominance of energy builds which already were better
3) People would often run Zombie mechs, since you could get a minimal repair/rearm for free, so why waste the cash

Bad. Bad. BAAAAAAAAD.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 09 June 2017 - 07:34 AM.

[Dread Render]

hehe... you stow pit

[metallio]

Sooo...the problem with R&R was just hat PGI priced it too high? Like, way way way too high?

I mean, I'm torn...it could all work just fine if you added a zero to the earnings in a match or moved the decimal for R&R in the "less expensive" direction...

Then again "PGI". It's too bad really...even if all R&R was was clicking a button on the end of the match and shrugging about a thousand here or there it'd feel a bit more like Mechwarrior. It'd also serve as a great basis for capturing clan tech and mounting on an IS mech...which leads easily into branded weaponry drops and things like that. All of which would make the game more interesting.

It wouldn't have to be a significant thing either...no one really cares about the rewards for capping intel in scout mode so a cost in that range wouldn't even be noticed. Branded weapon bonuses that came with drawbacks and were all in the tenths of a percent difference also wouldn't have any real world impact, but would "feel" cool.

Still...PGI.

[Dollar Bill]

Gwei Loong, on 09 June 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Sense the release of the Skill Tree and with all the refunds we got I find it hard to spend my C-Bills. We no longer have rule of three, I had HSP for everything, I got to sell off loads of modules, I have tons of GSP, GXP, HXP and everything I owned was completely set up the way I wanted it. I don't swap engines and if I had multiple load outs for a mech which required an engine size change I already owned it. We need a new C-Bills sink.
What if we only got rewards for winning and what if PGI also increased the rewards for assists, kmdd, kills, ect but they made mech repair a thing again. This would encourage better game play and discourage people that think sitting back and waiting to die is an option. Let’s say you do not score above 200, you don't get in any assists, no kmdd, no kills and it'll cost you.
Faction war could work the same way but maybe for the hard core crowd it could be even just a little bit more edgy. Wouldn't it be cool if you lost a mech in FW it became the other teams salvage. Then if you wanted to play that mech you'd have to buy a new one while the person who won the salvage was rewarded with it plus the repair cost to make it functional again.
Either way this will become a problem after a awhile because what am I going to spend c-bills on? New tech, ok sure but it's not like we get that much new tech and after a while if we don't have a c-bill sink people will lose interest. This will end up becoming like GXP.
I already don't care if I win or lose anymore. I don't need anything. It's not good for my game and I think I need some consequences, we all do. How do you guys feel about mech repair costs?

I think if you used all the consumable slots, and popped them all every game, that could eat into you c-bills. Especially if you lose.

[RoadblockXL]

Yes, I want everyone who isn't driving a medium-class laser-boat to be penalized heavily for their mech choice.

[El Bandito]

I spend 160,000 C-Bills per match on consumables, which means I am earning only about 50-100K per QP match. I say NO to repair costs.

[Khobai]

repair costs add absolutely nothing beneficial to the game. its just a pointless tax on cbills.

if you want a cbill sink then add one thats optional. like the ability to fly into games on a pimped out dropship for 300 million cbills.

[MustrumRidcully]

No, thank you, never again.

Gwei Loong, on 09 June 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

Listen, I agree it's a bit sarcastic but at the same time I see it as something that would encourage group play. We could also look at limiting the size of units and making them more regional. I think it'll be better for the game in the long run plus it could make it more group orientated. You know you hear that a lot. I only suggest this as a way to help encourage group play and group ques.

Nonsense, it encourages not having fun and stop playing.

People that want to play groups do that. People that don't, don't.

[Jiang Wei]

One of the biggest reason they removed RnR is because of suiciders. People would run an empty mech straight into the border to die(or the enemy team to get a few scouting cbills) then quit match and rinse/repeat with other mechs. It was the quickest and easiest way to make money. All the suiciding pissed off so many people. At first PGI was going to police it, but some vocal players(ahem) showed them the error of their ways and they decided it was better to remove rnr instead of banning half the people in the game.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 09 June 2017 - 08:47 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

R&R fundamentally makes no sense in a death match style of game. Repair & Rearm is a realistic concept, of course. But there is the problem - Death Matches are not realistic. That is not how any military would want to fight. There must be an option for retreat or surrender, there must be a willingness on both sides to honor the enemy retreating and surrendering.

A mercenary company can only function if it's mercenaries are allowed and able to retreat, and it's paid so well for its effort that it can still compensate for the occasional losses. In a 12vs12 match, your chances of getting out of the fight without losing your personal mech is worse than 50 % (Since there are almost always losses on both sides, and the losing side usually loses all its mechs). For any merc to enter such a risk, the payout would need to be so high that he'd get his complete mech paid off by the job.

And if you're not a mercenary company, but a soldier in a military force, then you personally wouldn't have to deal with any of that. You would get a salary and maybe hazard pay and that's it. It's your force's job to ensure you have the material you need to wage war.


Imagine being a taxi driver would entail a more than 50 % chance that your car would be totaled with each fare...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 June 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Gwei Loong, on 09 June 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

Listen, I agree it's a bit sarcastic but at the same time I see it as something that would encourage group play. We could also look at limiting the size of units and making them more regional. I think it'll be better for the game in the long run plus it could make it more group orientated. You know you hear that a lot. I only suggest this as a way to help encourage group play and group ques.

It doesn't encourage group play. You can't encourage group play - people either do or don't, based on their own desires. Rarely is it a matter of "encouragement" or even incentives. Time and time, games have tried ways to "encourage" group play, but that just never works - it just makes players who can not or will not (and there are LOTS of totally legit reasons why players may simply not want to) play in groups second class citizens.

But everything I said about R&R applies in group play too. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer; it literally makes everything worse and doesn't make anything better, barring for a couple people with highly selective "realism" desires... Very highly selective ones.

[G4LV4TR0N]

I wouldn't mind repair in CW after CW gets reworked. Except there is no population to support it.

[Wintersdark]

Jiang Wei, on 09 June 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

One of the biggest reason they removed RnR is because of suiciders. People would run an empty mech straight into the border to die(or the enemy team to get a few scouting cbills) then quit match and rinse/repeat with other mechs. It was the quickest and easiest way to make money. All the suiciding pissed off so many people. At first PGI was going to police it, but some vocal players(ahem) showed them the error of their ways and they decided it was better to remove rnr instead of banning half the people in the game.

What happened to me, regularly:

* I would fully repair and rearm my mech, and do my damnedest to win matches.
* There would ALWAYS be at least one mech that wasn't fully repaired/rearmed on my team, sometimes several.
* As I was a bad new player, in a crappy mech, I was already a drain on my team. Add a couple useless suiciders, and my team was doomed.

This lead to lots of matches I lost simply because a good portion of my team was literally useless. Not "you're so bad you're useless!" but actually "This mech has no functional weapons, no arms, and is starting a match at ~50% health." Then... yay. Another loss, more repair bills, no earnings to pay them.

R&R is *stupid* in a deathmatch arena PVP game. Stupid.

G4LV4TR0N, on 09 June 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind repair in CW after CW gets reworked. Except there is no population to support it.

All the same things said above still apply in CW. Repair is stupid.

Think of the game design and emergent player behavior, not "Wouldn't it be cool if...."

Mystere, on 09 June 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

In a full CW-only MWO, loyalists can choose from a nice stable of faction Mechs. Mercs, on the other hand, pay for their own.

Yes, I fully agree:

"In an entirely different game, R&R makes perfect sense."

In MWO though? Even if they ditched QP completely, they'd need to literally change everything to make that work. A nice stable of faction mechs? What builds? Think PGI is going to provide actually competitive builds for players to use that way, with appropriate skills and such?

No... That's just not going to happen.

[Spheroid]

So your problem is that you have too much money? How about you become a mech collector and attempt to own everything?

Or better yet build meta decks with duplicates for each gamemode and map in CW for both factions. I think you find that your excessive money problem will resolve itself quickly.

There are more than enough c-bill sinks in this game.

[Vordhosbn11]

Gwei Loong, on 09 June 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Sense the release of the Skill Tree and with all the refunds we got I find it hard to spend my C-Bills. We no longer have rule of three, I had HSP for everything, I got to sell off loads of modules, I have tons of GSP, GXP, HXP and everything I owned was completely set up the way I wanted it. I don't swap engines and if I had multiple load outs for a mech which required an engine size change I already owned it. We need a new C-Bills sink.
What if we only got rewards for winning and what if PGI also increased the rewards for assists, kmdd, kills, ect but they made mech repair a thing again. This would encourage better game play and discourage people that think sitting back and waiting to die is an option. Let’s say you do not score above 200, you don't get in any assists, no kmdd, no kills and it'll cost you.
Faction war could work the same way but maybe for the hard core crowd it could be even just a little bit more edgy. Wouldn't it be cool if you lost a mech in FW it became the other teams salvage. Then if you wanted to play that mech you'd have to buy a new one while the person who won the salvage was rewarded with it plus the repair cost to make it functional again.
Either way this will become a problem after a awhile because what am I going to spend c-bills on? New tech, ok sure but it's not like we get that much new tech and after a while if we don't have a c-bill sink people will lose interest. This will end up becoming like GXP.
I already don't care if I win or lose anymore. I don't need anything. It's not good for my game and I think I need some consequences, we all do. How do you guys feel about mech repair costs?

Dude,

No

What type of psychopath would ever advocate for something like this? If you're bored, open a smurf account and become a loyalist for whichever side you don't, or don't usually, play for...

Edited by Vordhosbn11, 09 June 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

metallio, on 09 June 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

Sooo...the problem with R&R was just hat PGI priced it too high? Like, way way way too high?

No. The problem is that it encourages people to run low maintenance builds, often low tech and lasers. Unless you were a whale then you took all the sweet tech and dominated. P2W essentially.
That problem would only go away if the cost got so low that it might as well not be there anyways.

[Mole]

OP you are aware that not everyone in the world got massive refunds from the skill tree release, right? I'm right up there with you. I have more CBills and GSP than I will ever need. Would I like something to spend them on? Sure I would. But I'm not going to request that the game be made more expensive for everyone just because I have too much money when other people do not.