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Timber Wolf: Balance Between Variants

Balance

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#1 DGTLDaemon

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 01:41 AM

A number of topics have already been posted regarding the mobility nerf that the Timer Wolf received in the last patch. I won't argue with the reasoning behind that nerf, but instead, I'd like to take a closer look at the balance between different Timber Wolf variants, because IMHO the engine desync created some serious issues there. Specifically, I'm talking about mobility bonuses from full omnipod sets, and mobility penalties associated with individual omnipods. There are three Timber Wolf omnipods that carry mobility penalties: TBR-A LT, TBR-S LT and TBR-S RT. Those penalties are cancelled out by using a full set of omnipods from the respective variant. At the same time, many popular builds use these omnipods in combination with other CTs. This used to be a non-issue back when the Timber Wolf was very agile because of its large XL 375 engine. A slight mobility penalty was a reasonable price to pay for 3 energy hardpoints (in case of the TBR-A LT) or jump jets (in case of the TBR-S LT and TBR-S RT). However, after the overall mobility nerf to the chassis that came with the engine desync, those penatlies are now seriously crippling the builds that rely on mixed omnipods. What's even worse, TBR-A laser vomit is now standing out as the most powerful Timber Wolf build. A full set of TBR-A ominpods can already support one of the strongest meta loadouts: 2xLPL+4xERML+TCOMP1. On top of that, not only does it cancel out all mobility penalties, but it also provides a 10% bonus to the torso yaw speed. So one of the best Timber Wolf loadouts is getting additional help which it really doesn't need, while a number of other loadouts are getting hit hard.

Let me illustrate what I mean. Let's take a look at a popular build that you can run on both the Timber Wolf and the Ebon Jaguar: 2xUAC10+3xERML. This is a build I happen to be very familiar with, as I've used it extensively in CW. Incidentally, it's also a mixed build which is something PGI are trying to support Posted Image And it's definitely not "OP" after the last nerf to the UACs. So, here we go:

TBR-PRIME
EBJ-A

As you can see, the loadouts are virtually identical. The Timber Wolf has more armor and 1 more heatsink, which makes sense because it's 10 tons heavier. Those two builds used to feel and play pretty much the same. However, after the latest patch, the Timber Wolf build became inferior to the Ebon Jag build because the overall low mobility of the chassis is now compounded by the penalties from the TBR-A LT. And the only way to get around it without incurring penalties is to drop the TBR-A LT and move one or two medium lasers (depending on what CT/LT combination you're using) to the left arm, which would require losing one heatsink. In turn, this would put a 75-ton mech strictly on par with a 65-ton mech, which just doesn't make sense.

What I'm proposing here is to:
1) Remove all mobility penalties from all Timber Wolf omnipods;
2) Remove all mobility bonuses from the full sets of Timber Wolf omnipods.
This would put all Timber Wolf variants and builds on equal footing, and eliminate the current dominance of the TBR-A laser vomit build.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 14 June 2017 - 10:05 AM.


#2 Tier5 Kerensky

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 02:56 AM

Or nerf the Ebon, it's better.

#3 Bud Crue

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:04 AM

View PostTeer Kerensky, on 11 June 2017 - 02:56 AM, said:

Or nerf the Ebon, it's better.


Wait...what?

Why nerf the Ebon because the Timber is now not very agile? (apropos, forget the "why" for a moment and consider the "how". Just how would you nerf the Ebon? Negative quirks?)

Not understanding this.

#4 r4plez

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:07 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 11 June 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:


Wait...what?

Why nerf the Ebon because the Timber is now not very agile? (apropos, forget the "why" for a moment and consider the "how". Just how would you nerf the Ebon? Negative quirks?)

Not understanding this.


You dont know PGI than...

#5 El Bandito

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:12 AM

Yeah remove the nerfs. Powercreep had sailed past Timbie already.

#6 DGTLDaemon

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:15 AM

View PostTeer Kerensky, on 11 June 2017 - 02:56 AM, said:

Or nerf the Ebon, it's better.

If I may point out, this is a thread about intra-Clan balance, specifically - about balance between different variants/builds of the same Clan mech. I would appreciate it if Clan haters refrained from posting their usual "all Clan mechs must be nerfed" bullsh*t in this thread Posted Image


View PostBud Crue, on 11 June 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:

Wait...what?

Why nerf the Ebon because the Timber is now not very agile? (apropos, forget the "why" for a moment and consider the "how". Just how would you nerf the Ebon?

Never mind the guy. Obviously, he's just one of those players who want all Clan tech to get nerfed Posted Image

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 11 June 2017 - 03:19 AM.


#7 Dale Grible

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:25 AM

I'm with the OP on this one. Take away any bonuses or penalties on the timby. Leave the jag where it is.

I dont do laser vomit across all variants or meta for that matter. Hell, my prime is pretty much stock. But i notice the arm pods seem kinda...i dunno...low. Nice to have the A pod to get some high mounts. But desync plus A pod penalties is too much

#8 Bud Crue

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:30 AM

View Postr4plez, on 11 June 2017 - 03:07 AM, said:


You dont know PGI than...


I kvetch about PGI about a lot o things, but the Timbies old negative quirks were the last vestige of negative quirks. If the Ebon was dominating play all of a sudden, certainly I can envision PGI knee-jerking with a negative quirk even now. But its not.

The issue is that the Timby is now so slow that there no point in taking one relative to an Ebon for the particular build being compared by the OP. Yes. I cannot imagine even PGI looking at that situation, and assuming they agree with the assertion, then concluding that negative quirks to the Ebon are the answer to said situation.


(actually given PGI history if they thought the Ebon with 2UAC10s and 3ERML was OP they would do something nonsensical like nerf all UACs and all energy weapons).

#9 Alan Davion

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:34 AM

View PostDGTLDaemon, on 11 June 2017 - 01:41 AM, said:

In turn, this would put a 75-ton mech strictly on par with a 65-ton mech, which just doesn't make sense.


Don't forget that Russ has said in the past that mechs need to be balanced 1-to-1. That means something as lowly as a Locust, Wasp or Stinger needs to be just as viable, or on par if you want, as something as super-meta as a Timber Wolf. So a Timber Wolf and Ebon Jaguar having the same effectiveness makes perfect sense when you keep that in mind.

#10 Tomo Sukesada

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 08:08 AM

I tried out my Timber for the first time since the ST patch and agree, it feels terrible compared to all my other mechs that I have tried. The combination of de-sync hit and negative quirks have rendered it sub-par to say the least. I am not sure removing the negative quirks is even going to be enough, to be honest.

I say that because I am running the Prime and even used the complete set of 8 and it still feels underwhelming. This is compared to other heavies and even mediums that I play.

Edited by Tomo Sukesada, 11 June 2017 - 08:10 AM.


#11 Y E O N N E

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 08:13 AM

Y'know, I bought a TBR recently. My first. Skilled it right up, specc'd for mid-range fighting using cMPL and cSRM4.

The worst thing I have to say about it is that the agility isn't getting in the way. Its massive CT is. Faster default torso yaw would be my first choice in buff purely to improve damage rolling as it's still fast enough in the feet to track the fastest of targets.

Second worst thing I have to say about it is the cockpit is utter shite. Way too many obstructions, and not even thin ones like the Locust has.





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