92 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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You wouldn't be able to feasibly do that even if it were smaller due to tonnage. This is IS tech.

you can do it quite easily with XL if heavy gauss' crit slots were reduced so it could fit in arms. you can also do it with LFE, although with severe ammo limitations.

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Dual Heavy Gauss and dual PPC? That's 55 tons

100 tonner with XL can fit it easily. or at the very least do dual heavy gauss and x1 heavy ppc.

so yeah not allowing heavy gauss to be used in conjunction with XL is a good thing. forcing you to use a STD engine with it keeps the PPFLD balanced.

im perfectly fine with it staying at 11 crits. the only way I could see heavy gauss being less than 11 crits is if theres a hard limit of only being able to charge one heavy gauss at a time.

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Plus, Heavy Gauss is expeced to deal full 25 damage only up to 180m

that doesnt make it any better. the reality is 65-70 damage pinpoint alphas shouldnt be allowed at any range.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2017 - 08:41 AM.

[kapusta11]

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

you could do it quite easily with XL

Heavy Gauss? with XL engine? Are you trolling?

[Zergling]

kapusta11, on 11 June 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Heavy Gauss? with XL engine? Are you trolling?

Yeah, I don't think he's aware that Heavy Gauss can only be installed in side torsos.

Edited by Zergling, 11 June 2017 - 08:46 AM.

[Khobai]

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Yeah, I don't think he's aware that Heavy Gauss can only be installed in side torsos.

Of course im aware of that.

People want to reduce its crit slots so it can fit in arms.

Im saying its crit slots shouldnt be reduced.


If you actually read the discussion in its entirety maybe youd see the whole part where people were discussing how heavy gauss and LBX20 should take up less than 11 crit slots so they can be installed in other locations besides the side torso. Which would allow you to use XL engines with them. I do not believe that should be allowed because of the potential for abuse.

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Heavy Gauss? with XL engine? Are you trolling?

Are you? youre obviously posting without reading the full context of the thread. Which was the whole discussion of whether or not Heavy Gauss should take up less crit slots so it can fit in arms so you can use XL with it...

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2017 - 08:50 AM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 11 June 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

The LB 20-X is totally good, guise. It does extra critical damage!

If it's anything like the Clan LB 20-X...

LBX and UAC/20. All CT shots.


The LB 20-X will be superior with extra critical damage.
....it'll also practically be like one bullet up until a certain range.

Well unless PGI's just giving the Clans better ****...

Edited by Koniving, 11 June 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[Zergling]

Also, Heavy Gauss have half the ammo per ton of regular Gauss, which would be just 5 shots per ton in MWO. That would require a minimum of 4 tons of ammo per HGR.

2x HGR + 8 tons of ammo in total = 44 tons and 30 slots
2x PPC = 14 tons and 6 slots
Total = 58 tons and 36 slots


100 tonner with a 300XL, standard structure, 592 points of armor and no lower/hand actuators = 56 tons free, 45 slots
100 tonner with a 300LFE, standard structure, 592 points of armor and no lower/hand actuators = 51 tons free, 47 slots

So yeah, even with an XL engine, the 100 tonner doesn't have the tonnage for 2x HGR + 2x PPC. It doesn't have the slots free for endo-steel either, even if the Heavy Gauss only take 10 slots each.

If it uses a 300XL with light-ferro, it still ends up 1 ton short... but of course HGR won't even fit in side torsos with an XL unless they are reduced to 9 slots each.

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Of course im aware of that.

People want to reduce its crit slots so it can fit in arms.

Im saying its crit slots shouldnt be reduced.


If you actually read the discussion in its entirety maybe youd see the whole part where people were discussing how heavy gauss and LBX20 should take up less than 11 crit slots so they can be installed in other locations besides the side torso. Which would allow you to use XL engines with them. I do not believe that should be allowed because of the potential for abuse.

False. People are saying the HGR and LBX20 should be reduced in crits so they won't require a standard engine.

LBX20 would then be allowed in arm locations with any engine type, while HGR would still be restricted to side torsos (allowing it to be used with LFE, but not XL).

Edited by Zergling, 11 June 2017 - 08:57 AM.

[Khobai]

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False. People are saying the HGR and LBX20 should be reduced in crits so they won't require a standard engine.

LBX20 would then be allowed in arm locations with any engine type, while HGR would still be restricted to side torsos (allowing it to be used with LFE, but not XL).

um if HGR is reduced from 11 to 10 crits then it could fit in arms too. which means you could use XL with it.

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So yeah, even with an XL engine, the 100 tonner doesn't have the tonnage for 2x HGR + 2x PPC

that is completely false. king crab with an XL engine and endosteel and some armor stripped off its arms/legs can fit it easily. it has like 60+ free tons. Even if dual ppc means not enough ammo, it can easily do dual heavy gauss + x1 heavy ppc for 65 pinpoint damage.

it also has no lower actuators or hand actuators so the heavy gauss at 10 crit slots could fit in its arms which would allow it to take the XL

so yeah I dont really know what youre talking about. but 100 tonner with XL fits it easily.

but the point is heavy gauss should either remain at 11 crits to prevent any kindve abuse or the only way it should be reduced to 10 crits is if theres a hard limit that prevents you from firing two heavy gauss at the same time.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2017 - 09:08 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 June 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

You wouldn't be able to feasibly do that even if it were smaller due to tonnage. This is IS tech.

We could also remind him of the Dual HGauss being 36 tons
Exactly the same as the Dual cGauss and dual cERPPC


You know, only with a STD engine, not a cXL, and mounted exclusively in the torso, unlike say the MC Mk2, with arm Gauss and torso PPCs.



Yeah, I think I'll grab that as my free entry GrabDeal. That, or LBx brawler, or quad HLL 30 DHS
It should be a neat robot. Probably won't have Cyclops agility though...that thing is more agile than my H2C!

[TELEFORCE]

They should just implement crit splitting for the big guns. No reason why they shouldn't.

[Lugin]

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

um if HGR is reduced from 11 to 10 crits then it could fit in arms too. which means you could use XL with it.

Wrong. Construction rules specifically state Heavy Gauss/Improved Heavy Gauss can only be torso mounted.

-edit-
Dug up the reference.

TechManual p219 said:

Heavy Gauss rifles may only be mounted by units powered by fusion or fission engines (including BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs, aero-space units, Combat Vehicles and Support Vehicles). On BattleMechs or IndustrialMechs, Heavy Gauss rifles may only be mounted in Torso locations, and their critical slots may be divided (but only among two adjacent Torso locations, side-to-center).

Edited by Lugin, 11 June 2017 - 09:20 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Lugin, on 11 June 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Wrong. Construction rules specifically state Heavy Gauss/Improved Heavy Gauss can only be torso mounted.

That's because it's 11 slots

If it weren't 11 slots, it could fit wherever there's 10 slots (which includes certain arms)

Edited by Mcgral18, 11 June 2017 - 09:20 AM.

[Lugin]

Mcgral18, on 11 June 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

That's because it's 11 slots

If it weren't 11 slots, it could fit wherever there's 10 slots (which includes certain arms)

Nope.

You got your post in at same time as my edit adding the reference.
Here it is again.

TechManual p219 said:

Heavy Gauss rifles may only be mounted by units powered by fusion or fission engines (including BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs, aero-space units, Combat Vehicles and Support Vehicles). On BattleMechs or IndustrialMechs, Heavy Gauss rifles may only be mounted in Torso locations, and their critical slots may be divided (but only among two adjacent Torso locations, side-to-center).

-editted for grammar-

Edited by Lugin, 11 June 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[Tarogato]

Imagine if PGI significantly boosted the critical damage on IS LB20 so it was worth the tonnage and slots? That'd actually be kinda cool.

Maybe do the same for all IS LBs? Even the LB10... reduce the cooldown on it so that it's slower than the AC10, but it deals massive crit damage in comparison.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

you can do it quite easily with XL if heavy gauss' crit slots were reduced so it could fit in arms. you can also do it with LFE, although with severe ammo limitations.

Oh yes, just what I always wanted; a 53 kph King Crab that dies when one side torso goes boom, whose side torso is vunlerable to carry-over damage when the H-Gauss in the arm explodes and can do nothing about it, and whose firepower is out-classed by mid-range by pretty much everything else. Yup. The best.

You would be far and away better served by bringing a UAC/20 or AC/20 and SRMs for the close range where H-Gauss has its full potential or a pair of AC/20 and a pair of Snub Nose PPC so you can actually run an LFE and not have that single torso weakness. And for mid-long range, a pair of regular Gauss and a quartet of Light PPC will also serve you better.

It's not all about the damage.

[Mcgral18]

Tarogato, on 11 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Imagine if PGI significantly boosted the critical damage on IS LB20 so it was worth the tonnage and slots? That'd actually be kinda cool.

Maybe do the same for all IS LBs? Even the LB10... reduce the cooldown on it so that it's slower than the AC10, but it deals massive crit damage in comparison.

If it dealt 30 regular damage (be it dam increase, or 30 pellets), it might be worth the cost
With typical LBx CritDamMult


Otherwise, stick it with the isSLs for uselessness

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

um if HGR is reduced from 11 to 10 crits then it could fit in arms too. which means you could use XL with it.

Not if there is a specific rule prohibiting Heavy Gauss from being mounted in arms, as in TT.

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

that is completely false. king crab with an XL engine and endosteel and some armor stripped off its arms/legs can fit it easily. it has like 60+ free tons. Even if dual ppc means not enough ammo, it can easily do dual heavy gauss + x1 heavy ppc for 65 pinpoint damage.

it also has no lower actuators or hand actuators so the heavy gauss at 10 crit slots could fit in its arms which would allow it to take the XL

so yeah I dont really know what youre talking about. but 100 tonner with XL fits it easily.

I suggest checking it out with Solaris Skunk Werks or smurfy; a 100 tonner with a 300XL, endo-steel and no lower/hand actuators has only 31 crits free; a pair of Heavy Gauss take up 22, and a pair of PPC take up 6, leaving just 3 slots free for ammo.

Even if it swaps the pair of PPC for a single Heavy PPC, it still ends up with only 5 slots free for ammo, which is just not enough.

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

but the point is heavy gauss should either remain at 11 crits to prevent any kindve abuse or the only way it should be reduced to 10 crits is if theres a hard limit that prevents you from firing two heavy gauss at the same time.

Guess what? A standard engine + endo-steel in a 100 tonner can run 2x Heavy Gauss + 1x Heavy PPC with 6 tons of ammo (with both Magazine Capacity skill nodes, this will likely be the bare minimum amount of ammo).
So even if the Heavy Gauss does take 11 crits, Inner Sphere is still getting a 65 point alpha.

I think most people will prefer to run a regular or Snub-Nosed PPC to have more ammo though.

EDIT: Or strip armor off the arm that doesn't hold the Heavy PPC, allowing ammo to be increased to 8 tons.
EDIT 2: Or go with the stripped arm, trade the Heavy PPC and 2 tons of ammo for a pair of Snub-Nosed PPCs, for 70 alpha.

Those will all work with the Annihilator; I checked its hardpoints will allow for it. Also accounted for most variants having lower arm actuators for 2 less crit slots.

Edited by Zergling, 11 June 2017 - 10:27 AM.

[Khobai]

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Guess what? A standard engine + endo-steel in a 100 tonner can run 2x Heavy Gauss + 1x Heavy PPC with 6 tons of ammo (with both Magazine Capacity skill nodes, this will likely be the bare minimum amount of ammo).
So even if the Heavy Gauss does take 11 crits, Inner Sphere is still getting a 65 point alpha.

thats fine. having to take a 300 standard engine and being forced to use an annihilator is a massive downside. annihilator is going to be a pretty terrible mech, having a 65 point alpha wont make it any less terrible. The downsides are going to outweigh the benefits lol.

my point was that you shouldnt be able to run that build with an XL or LFE. the STD engine forces you to give up something substantial in exchange for that damage. tradeoffs are a good thing.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Zergling, on 11 June 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

Guess what? A standard engine + endo-steel in a 100 tonner can run 2x Heavy Gauss + 1x Heavy PPC with 6 tons of ammo (with both Magazine Capacity skill nodes, this will likely be the bare minimum amount of ammo).
So even if the Heavy Gauss does take 11 crits, Inner Sphere is still getting a 65 point alpha.

assuming you can fire 2 HGauss, Ghost heat will weaken the Heavy Gauss,
for some reason as the AC20 is locked to 1 or GH i dont see the HGauss not getting the same GH,

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 11 June 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

thats fine. having to take a 300 standard engine and being forced to use an annihilator is a massive downside. annihilator is going to be a pretty terrible mech.

my point was that you shouldnt be able to run that build with an XL or LFE. the STD engine forces you to give up something substantial in exchange for that damage. tradeoffs are a good thing.

And if PGI releases another IS 100 tonner in the future that can run that build, but with better geometry than the Annihilator? Like the Pillager or Thunder Hawk?
If the Annihilator does turn out to be crap, then PGI is pretty much guaranteed to release something like that in the future, sooner or later.

Andi Nagasia, on 11 June 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

assuming you can fire 2 HGauss, Ghost heat will weaken the Heavy Gauss,

for some reason as the AC20 is locked to 1 or GH i dont see the HGauss not getting the same GH,

I'm somewhat doubtful PGI would do that, given the staple of Gauss Rifle's is 'high damage, low heat'.

If they did give it ghost heat, then I'd expect them to remove a bunch of the HGR's weaknesses, like low rate of fire, charge up time and severe damage drop off.

Edited by Zergling, 11 June 2017 - 10:36 AM.

[Khobai]

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for some reason as the AC20 is locked to 1 or GH i dont see the HGauss not getting the same GH,

ghost heat doesnt stop people from firing dual AC20s together. no reason to think it will deter dual heavy gauss either.

the main thing that will deter dual heavy gauss (assuming it stays at 11 crits) is that youll have to use a annihiLOLator.

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And if PGI releases another IS 100 tonner in the future that can run that build, but with better geometry than the Annihilator? Like the Pillager or Thunder Hawk?

youre free to speculate about the future. but as of now the annihilator is the only mech that can run that build. and its pretty much a non-threat.

And I kindve doubt the pillager or thunderhawk are getting released ever. they certainly would not be my top picks for a new 100 ton IS mech. Id say the Fafnir is probably the most likely new mech that could make dual heavy gauss potentially threatening. So when the Fafnir gets announed then ill worry about it.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2017 - 10:46 AM.