19 replies to this topic

[An Innocent Urbie]

IS Mechpack:

Pros

- Engines can be removed and can be used by other mechs saving you a ton of cbills


Cons

- stil not using omnipods,


Clan Mechpack

Pros

- uses Omnipods so basically the other 2 mechs can be treated as free guns/misc items/mechbays

Cons

- Engines wasted as it is super glued to the CT Omni



what are you other pros/cons

[El Bandito]

IS pack = quirk reliant.

Clan pack = not so much.

[Jay Leon Hart]

As a note, Clans have BattleMechs which can also swap engines.

IS Cons
- Frequently need to upgrade to Endo and DHS
- Frequently need to purchase an XL engine

Clan Cons
- Unless there are CT hardpoints, you don't need more than 1 OmniMech

[Ced Riggs]

IS omnis have glued engines, too.
Clan battlemechs have swappable engines, too.

The difference is per-chassis, and tech base. There is no general difference. But then again, in the entire balance debate people focus on tech base, not on the more pressing issue: bad chassis vs. good chassis. It's not like a cataphract can be saved by quirks, or that a summoner can magically undo its limited irons. Neither can a Zeus stand up to a Battlemaster, or a Myst Lynx to a Locust. (Assuming equal pilots.)

[El Bandito]

Ced Riggs, on 12 June 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

IS omnis have glued engines, too.
Clan battlemechs have swappable engines, too.

The difference is per-chassis, and tech base. There is no general difference. But then again, in the entire balance debate people focus on tech base, not on the more pressing issue: bad chassis vs. good chassis. It's not like a cataphract can be saved by quirks, or that a summoner can magically undo its limited irons. Neither can a Zeus stand up to a Battlemaster, or a Myst Lynx to a Locust. (Assuming equal pilots.)

You are half-correct. IS do have Omnis, and Clans do have Battlemechs.

Let's be clear, there will always be mechs that are better, or worse than the others. However, a mech like Cataphract can be saved by quirks. Why, even bad mechs such as the Quickdraws, and Wolverines were once called OP due to quirks. Therefore, base tech balance should be done first to bring both sides to similar competence, and then use quirks+hardpoint inflation to improve terribad mechs on both sides, such as Spider-5V.

Also, Mist Lynx can stand up to Locust, what are you talking about?

Edited by El Bandito, 12 June 2017 - 01:39 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

El Bandito, on 12 June 2017 - 01:34 AM, said:

Therefore, base tech balance should be done first to bring both sides to similar competence, and then use quirks+hardpoint inflation to improve terribad mechs on both sides, such as Spider-5V.

I guess this is a chicken/egg kind of deal, eh?

On one hand, I agree with you - tech balance is required to identify truly under/overperforming chassis. On the other hand, normalizing performance ranges would help balance tech. From the eyes of a 'Phract, a Night Gyr will almost always appear tremendously overpowered. From the eyes of a Battlemaster, a Warhawk might appear not so tough to deal with. Eh. I dunno.

Still, underperforming chassis muddy the waters, just as imbalanced tech make it harder to pinpoint chassi discrepancies. New tech is now coming, and crazy days are ahead of us.

[Bud Crue]

So from the perspective of mech packs, IS v Clan pros and cons, as someone ignorant of building clan mechs one thing I don't get is the whole Omni-pods quirks bonuses thing.

So, as I understand it if I want the rule of 8 bonus that some mechs have I have to have ALL Omni pods of the same variant, right? Yet as far as I can tell most of the meta builds chuck the rule of 8 bonuses out the window in favor of creating the given meta build in question.

What confuses me here, is that the pods and the rule of 8 bonus are in effect, clan quirks; yet it seems clan builds happily disregard the oh so "OP" quirks in favor of very specific build, which leads me to conclude that the pod/rule of 8 related quirks really aren't that important...and yet folks will debate how 1-2 .75% heat gen nodes is an essential attribute to a given mech but will dump a 5% heat green bonus from the rule of 8 omnipods on a mech like the Nova just to get a specific build?

I find it all very confusing. And makes me long for the days of just looking at the quirks list of an IS mech and building around that (which PGI says they want to eliminate, and I don't understand that either, especially in light of the Clan mechs that ignore the quirks they have).

Sigh. Sorry for this mess of a post, but like I said, I just don't understand. Some folks say IS mechs are OP cuz of quirks and force the player to build to those quirks (according to PGI), but the supposed "best" builds for Clan mechs seem avoid using the quirks that they could potentially utilize, because apparently quirks aren't important to Clan mechs, except when it comes to the skills tree...for some reason.

Anyway, as far as IS v Clan mechpacks go; I don't buy them for myself anymore. The mechs I want due to nostalgia are in the game, and rule of three is gone, so I just wait for c-bills and buy the 1 variant I want. I see no benefit to the omnipods for the reasons stated above (buy em ala carte with cbills) so no real advantage to buying a clan pack, and as for the IS mechs that are often quirk dependent PGI says it is their goal to eliminate those quirks so I just don't see any advantage to buying those packs either.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Bud Crue, on 12 June 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

So, as I understand it if I want the rule of 8 bonus that some mechs have I have to have ALL Omni pods of the same variant, right? Yet as far as I can tell most of the meta builds chuck the rule of 8 bonuses out the window in favor of creating the given meta build in question.

Some OmniPods have their own, inherent quirks and these are often used to boost overall performance, even if the pod itself is empty. For example, the NVA-A has an 8-piece bonus of
5% ERPPC Velocity
-5% Energy Heatgen
The NVA-A arms also each give
5% ERPPC Velocity
-3% Energy Heatgen
For a total of
15% ERPPC Velocity
-11% Energy Heatgen
However, just slap the arms on any Nova (like I do with the D) to get
10% ERPPC Velocity
-6% Energy Heatgen
Then I get to shave the arms of armour and have my ERPPCs in the STs.

So the 8-piece bonuses can be useful, but it's generally better jsut to mix-and-match.

Another example is the Huntsman Pakhet. I run mine with ASRM6 and SPL, so I have a choice with the Left Arm. I can either keep to just 3 SPL and gain
15% Turn Rate
10% Missile Velocity
Or, I can swap the arm for one with 2E and run with 4 SPL. I can even swap out for the Right Arm and run 5 SPL.

OmniMechs, for me, mean a lot more small changes and tweaks as I tinker a 'mech to suit me.

[Bud Crue]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 June 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

Some OmniPods have their own, inherent quirks and these are often used to boost overall performance, even if the pod itself is empty. For example, the NVA-A has an 8-piece bonus of
5% ERPPC Velocity
-5% Energy Heatgen
The NVA-A arms also each give
5% ERPPC Velocity
-3% Energy Heatgen
For a total of
15% ERPPC Velocity
-11% Energy Heatgen
However, just slap the arms on any Nova (like I do with the D) to get
10% ERPPC Velocity
-6% Energy Heatgen
Then I get to shave the arms of armour and have my ERPPCs in the STs.

So the 8-piece bonuses can be useful, but it's generally better jsut to mix-and-match.

Another example is the Huntsman Pakhet. I run mine with ASRM6 and SPL, so I have a choice with the Left Arm. I can either keep to just 3 SPL and gain
15% Turn Rate
10% Missile Velocity
Or, I can swap the arm for one with 2E and run with 4 SPL. I can even swap out for the Right Arm and run 5 SPL.

OmniMechs, for me, mean a lot more small changes and tweaks as I tinker a 'mech to suit me.

OP, Sorry to hijack the thread here but I am taking this opportunity to learn something...

So let me get this straight: the Nova A has a rule of 8 bonus of -5% heat gen. That means I gotta use all 8 A omnipods for those quirks, but I can equip just one arm from a D to get -6% heat gen? If that's so, then that is well, stupid and seems to be the cause of part of my confusion. I mean why bother with the rule of 8 at all? That is a question for PGI not the players I suppose. But really why bother with those rule of 8 quirks that are actually dis-incentivized to be used when a single omnipod of a different variant gives you the superior performance? I had assumed there had to be a reason, but apparently not.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Bud Crue, on 12 June 2017 - 04:28 AM, said:

So let me get this straight: the Nova A has a rule of 8 bonus of -5% heat gen. That means I gotta use all 8 A omnipods for those quirks, but I can equip just one arm from a D to get -6% heat gen?

No, one arm gets you -3%, both arms together gets you -6%

Generally though, yes, the 8-piece bonus is not worth it.

[Ced Riggs]

Bud Crue, on 12 June 2017 - 04:28 AM, said:

OP, Sorry to hijack the thread here but I am taking this opportunity to learn something...

The problem is, even if an omnipod or set-of-8 bonus is good, the primary decision is hard point type and placement. After that, if possible, omnipods also dictate if you get jump jets on some chassis (Timber Wolf, Arctic Wolf soon...).

First, you need to get the hardpoints where and how you need them for the build. If you drop 5% heat generation to get enough/right hardpoints, so be it. There is no use for a set-of-8 bonus you cannot capitalize on.

Examples: The Huntsman-A has nice quirks for pulse lasers, but only two energy slots. The Night Gyr B has Gauss Rifle Cooldown quirks, but can't mount energy natively for Gauss/PPC. The Line Backer Prime, on the other hand, get's PPC velocity, and has enough energy mounts so it's kept intact. The Line Backer B is perfect out of the box, kept intact. But if you want to go , as an idea, 6 SPL, 4x ASRM4, you need to break the sets. Hard points first, sets after.

And a -UAC Jam chance, -cooldown set bonus with a single hardpoint is just sad.

[Bud Crue]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 June 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

No, one arm gets you -3%, both arms together gets you -6%

Generally though, yes, the 8-piece bonus is not worth it.

Got it. Thanks.
Just seems silly that PGI says IS quirks are a problem since they push players into specific builds when it comes to IS mechs, yet Clan mechs with their rule of 8 quirks can be fairly appreciable too. Yet apparently these Clans quirks which are only available for very specific builds (ones that take advantage of the rule of 8), are readily abandoned by players for lesser quirks so they can do different builds not fully taking advantage of those quirks (not using the rule of 8). Why PGI thinks one use of quirks in one example to push players into specific builds is bad for the game but the other which also pushes players toward specific builds is not; and yet in both IS and Clan players are free to ignore those quirks and in both cases often do.

I'm building my clan mechs to the quirks just like I do with IS mechs until bad performance teaches me not to on some mechs...just like it did with IS mechs. Or more likely PGI will change a bunch of stuff and make the whole thing even more confusing for me than it already is.

Bah! I worry about this stuff too much I think.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

The biggest advantage of Clan mech packs is that endo/ferro/DHS are almost always stock.

Lets not even talk about balance and simply assume that a Clan mech and IS mech can both be built to be equally powerful.

The Clan mech is at least going to come with double heat sinks, and endo or ferro. This means that to be brought up to a base line level, the majority of IS mech pack mechs need an additional 1.8mil investment per variant you intend to play.

The absolute worst deal is a light mech pack like the Javelin, where all of the $20 pack variants need to be upgraded with DHS, Endo and Ferro, (1.95mil) and all of the variants available need to be up-engined with a large XL. Under the mastery system, you'd have to drop around 20 million credits to fit out a trio of light mechs... that will cost what.. maybe 2 - 2.5 mil each?

Even assuming you got a preorder bonus of 6.5mil credits, it's still a massive expense compared to omnimechs.

It does fluctuate from chassis to chassis. Bushwacker was a great pack since all of the variants came with DHS and a 275 XL. Uziel will be another cost-effective pack. These are exceptions and not the rule, however. Pay attention to how DHS/Endo/XL engines are paywalled, and you'll see there are major hidden expenses to most variants in $20 packs.

Obviously even Clan battlemechs predominantly come with Endo, XL engines, and universally come with DHS. On top of more expensive base line tech, they're a significantly better ROI.

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 12 June 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

An Innocent Urbie, on 12 June 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

IS Mechpack:
Pros
- Engines can be removed and can be used by other mechs saving you a ton of cbills

Cons
- stil not using omnipods,


Clan Mechpack
Pros
- uses Omnipods so basically the other 2 mechs can be treated as free guns/misc items/mechbays

Cons
- Engines wasted as it is super glued to the CT Omni

what are you other pros/cons

well not all IS mechs are BattleMechs,
and not all Clan Mechs are OmniMechs,
that said


BattleMech,
Pros
-Engine can be Swapped,
-Upgrades can be Swapped,
-no locked Equipment(DHSs ect)
-hardpoint inflation(helps Level some Varaints)

Cons
-you are stuck with the hardpoints you have,


OmniMech,
Pros
-can Change hardpoints(you can Min Max Energy/Ballisitc/Missiles)

Cons
-Engines are locked(if you dont already have a good engine your at a disadvantage),
-Upgrades are locked(if you dont have any upgrades or you just have Ferro your at a disadvantage),
-some Equipment is locked(DHSs, CAP, JJ, MASC, ect)
-no hardpoint inflation(hardpoint starved mechs suffer)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 12 June 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 12 June 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

The biggest advantage of Clan mech packs is that endo/ferro/DHS are almost always stock.

Lets not even talk about balance and simply assume that a Clan mech and IS mech can both be built to be equally powerful.

The Clan mech is at least going to come with double heat sinks, and endo or ferro. This means that to be brought up to a base line level, the majority of IS mech pack mechs need an additional 1.8mil investment per variant you intend to play.

well if you want to buy a clan JR7-IIC(lets say 3) it'll cost you 6,660,000C-bills,
if you buy its IS counter part a JR7-D(same hardpoints) it'll cost you 3,010,000C-bills,
give it Endo Ferro & DHSs, like the JR7-IIC-3 then trade up the 245 engine for a 260,
all that and it'll cost you 6,707,000C-bills,

so with that making both mechs near identical plus or minus some speed,
you end up paying 47,000C-bills more for the IS JR7(6,660,000 - 6,707,000)
but also take into consideration the 245 is 92,000C-bills more than the 260,

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 12 June 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

The absolute worst deal is a light mech pack like the Javelin, where all of the $20 pack variants need to be upgraded with DHS, Endo and Ferro, (1.95mil) and all of the variants available need to be up-engined with a large XL. Under the mastery system, you'd have to drop around 20 million credits to fit out a trio of light mechs... that will cost what.. maybe 2 - 2.5 mil each?

Even assuming you got a preorder bonus of 6.5mil credits, it's still a massive expense compared to omnimechs.

It does fluctuate from chassis to chassis. Bushwacker was a great pack since all of the variants came with DHS and a 275 XL. Uziel will be another cost-effective pack. These are exceptions and not the rule, however. Pay attention to how DHS/Endo/XL engines are paywalled, and you'll see there are major hidden expenses to most variants in $20 packs.

Obviously even Clan battlemechs predominantly come with Endo, XL engines, and universally come with DHS. On top of more expensive base line tech, they're a significantly better ROI.

true but all packs are based on a cost system, they arnt determined by ingame costs,
which is why most packs cost,
$20 for the Standard, $40 for the Collectors, and $15 Hero & $15 reinforcements,
does this make Clan a better Value for buying packs, yes it does but not everyone buys packs,
and the cost in game is very much similar for both sides, so i dont see the problem,

[Y E O N N E]

Ced Riggs, on 12 June 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

It's not like a cataphract can be saved by quirks, or that a summoner can magically undo its limited irons. Neither can a Zeus stand up to a Battlemaster, or a Myst Lynx to a Locust. (Assuming equal pilots.)

How long have you been playing? Because quirks most definitely can save, and have saved, a bad chassis. You think the Locust was inherently good? Dragon? Victor? Black Knight? Quickdraw? Thunderbolt? Adder? Ice Ferret? All bad 'Mechs saved by quirks at one point or another.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 June 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 June 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

well if you want to buy a clan JR7-IIC(lets say 3) it'll cost you 6,660,000C-bills,
if you buy its IS counter part a JR7-D(same hardpoints) it'll cost you 3,010,000C-bills,
give it Endo Ferro & DHSs, like the JR7-IIC-3 then trade up the 245 engine for a 260,
all that and it'll cost you 6,707,000C-bills,

so with that making both mechs near identical plus or minus some speed,
you end up paying 47,000C-bills more for the IS JR7(6,660,000 - 6,707,000)
but also take into consideration the 245 is 92,000C-bills more than the 260,


true but all packs are based on a cost system, they arnt determined by ingame costs,
which is why most packs cost,
$20 for the Standard, $40 for the Collectors, and $15 Hero & $15 reinforcements,
does this make Clan a better Value for buying packs, yes it does but not everyone buys packs,
and the cost in game is very much similar for both sides, so i dont see the problem,

This thread is about the pros and cons of IS vs. Clan mech packs. The relative cost of a JR7-D vs. JR7-IIC is irrelevant. That the pack cost is standardized is also irrelevant- the issue I'm talking about is the exchange rate of USD spent : C-bills gained in in-game items.

Let's compare the value of the Assassin pack vs. the Viper pack for perhaps the best example.

Standard packs were both $20, which gets you

ASN-21
ASN-23
ASN-101

Combined value: 4 235 MC or 10 583 572 C-Bills

Viper Prime
Viper A
Viper B

Combined value: 11 685 MC or 29 201 661 C-Bills.

Just to get three new mechs sitting in your mechbay you're picking between an exchange rate of 211 MC / $1, or 584 MC / $1. Really hard choice, huh?

Now consider that all of those Assassins need DHS, endo-steel, ferro, and XL engines... subtract the approximately 18 million needed to fit those three mechs out and you'll see that buying many of the $20 IS packs are straight up net losses.

Sure, your Assassin will be about the same value as a Viper once you have it all kitted out.. the point is that it you're paying the same price for a mech that's either 75-100% fitted out in terms of DHS, Endo etc. vs. one that needs all of these things added on after the fact by you, the consumer.

If you don't like that example you can do your own math for the value of Kodiak vs. Annihilator or Cyclops vs. Supernova packs. Clan packs represent significantly better value. It's like going to a car dealership and being offered a car with no transmission for the same price as an identical, or nearly identical model.

Now, after we establish this very basic fact we can grapple that Clan mechs have a whole host of additional advantages.. less quirk reliance, Clan XL and Clan weapons etc. Imagine going to that same car dealership and being offered a stripper car with no AC, no power windows, and no transmission for the same price as the same model at the top trim level with leather seats, AC, remote start etc...

[Angel of Annihilation]

Actually I think that depending on what the type of mech, the IS packs tend to give more value at least under the new format.

With IS mechs, if you buy into the Mechpacks your getting at least 3 unique variants and up to 6 unique variants. The key here is unique. Each and every one of them will require or at least can have its on unique build that only that variant can do and you might very well actually use each and every chassis if your buy into the mechpacks.

With the the Clan mechs, aside from the Arctic Wolf's reinforcement and hero, your getting nothing really unique from the 3-6 mechs your purchasing. The Novacat has no hard points in the CT meaning you can build every possible build by just owning one of the variants. The only exception is the arm pods on the hero since they require to own the hero to use. However you could wait until the mech is out for MC and just buy the Hero then, for cheaper than you can buy the basic and hero pack now. The Arctic Wolf is in a similar situation. The basic back is all Omnimechs with no hard points in the CT. If you wait until C-bills you only have to buy one to get access to ever build you could do buy purchasing the standard pack. You only get unique mechs if you also buy the reinforcements and/or the Hero.

So with the IS mechs your getting more value simply because unlike the Clan packs, you will likely keep and use most of the variants. With the Clan Packs, your most likely going to sell off everything except one variant and just build that one to suite.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Viktor Drake, on 12 June 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Actually I think that depending on what the type of mech, the IS packs tend to give more value at least under the new format.

With IS mechs, if you buy into the Mechpacks your getting at least 3 unique variants and up to 6 unique variants. The key here is unique. Each and every one of them will require or at least can have its on unique build that only that variant can do and you might very well actually use each and every chassis if your buy into the mechpacks.

With the the Clan mechs, aside from the Arctic Wolf's reinforcement and hero, your getting nothing really unique from the 3-6 mechs your purchasing. The Novacat has no hard points in the CT meaning you can build every possible build by just owning one of the variants. The only exception is the arm pods on the hero since they require to own the hero to use. However you could wait until the mech is out for MC and just buy the Hero then, for cheaper than you can buy the basic and hero pack now. The Arctic Wolf is in a similar situation. The basic back is all Omnimechs with no hard points in the CT. If you wait until C-bills you only have to buy one to get access to ever build you could do buy purchasing the standard pack. You only get unique mechs if you also buy the reinforcements and/or the Hero.

So with the IS mechs your getting more value simply because unlike the Clan packs, you will likely keep and use most of the variants. With the Clan Packs, your most likely going to sell off everything except one variant and just build that one to suite.

Clan Koolaid must be good stuff if you can pass off 1 good variant and the rest mediocre to bad as being "added value".

[Snowbluff]

Bud Crue, on 12 June 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

What confuses me here, is that the pods and the rule of 8 bonus are in effect, clan quirks; yet it seems clan builds happily disregard the oh so "OP" quirks in favor of very specific build, which leads me to conclude that the pod/rule of 8 related quirks really aren't that important...and yet folks will debate how 1-2 .75% heat gen nodes is an essential attribute to a given mech but will dump a 5% heat green bonus from the rule of 8 omnipods on a mech like the Nova just to get a specific build?

Really 8-set QUIRKS SUCK

1) They discourage, or try to discourage, putting together actually good hardpoint setups.
2) The sets generally have crappy hardpoints.

Take the TBR-D for example. 8 set give a huge PPC velocity bonus.
So, given that, what are the hardpoints? 2 energy IN THE ARMS, and 4 missiles. So you get 2 PPCs with good velocity but bad convergence. :l