129 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

InnerSphereNews, on 15 May 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

Unlocking Skills in the Survival>Armor Structure Tree will help ensure you stay in the fight as long as possible.

Reinforced CasingReduces the chance of taking taking a Critical Hit.

Shock AbsorbanceReduces the amount of damage taken when falling from height.

AMS OverloadIncreases the damage of your Anti-Missile Systems (if equipped).

Skeletal DensityIncreases your amount of Internal Structure.

Armor HardeningIncreases your amount of Armor.

An important trait of the Survival Tree is that Skeletal Density and Armor Hardening values are contingent upon exact tonnage, rather than Weight Class. The table below is truncated for clean formatting, but percentages scale at 1% per tonnage increment for Total Values, 0.1% for Per Node values.


Tonnage...Skeletal Density...Armor Hardening...
20Ton.................41%......................26%.............
25Ton.................40%......................25%.............
30Ton.................39%......................24%.............
35Ton.................38%......................23%.............
40Ton.................37%......................22%.............
45Ton.................36%......................21%.............
50Ton.................35%......................20%.............
55Ton.................34%......................19%.............
60Ton.................33%......................18%.............
65Ton.................32%......................17%.............
70Ton.................31%......................16%.............
75Ton.................30%......................15%.............
80Ton.................29%......................14%.............
85Ton.................28%......................13%.............
90Ton.................27%......................12%.............
95Ton.................26%......................11%.............
100Ton...............25%......................10%.............

Actual Bonuses to Structure & Armor,
Tonnage...Skeletal Density...Armor Hardening...
20Ton.........41%(+4CT)...........26%(+5CT).........
25Ton.........40%(+5CT)...........25%(+7CT).........
30Ton.........39%(+6CT)...........24%(+8CT).........
35Ton.........38%(+7CT)...........23%(+9CT)........
40Ton.........37%(+8CT)...........22%(+10CT)........
45Ton.........36%(+9CT)...........21%(+11CT)........
50Ton.........35%(+9CT)...........20%(+12CT).........
55Ton.........34%(+11CT).........19%(+13CT).........
60Ton.........33%(+12CT).........18%(+13CT).........
65Ton.........32%(+12CT).........17%(+13CT).........
70Ton.........31%(+12CT).........16%(+13CT).........
75Ton.........30%(+13CT).........15%(+13CT).........
80Ton.........29%(+13CT).........14%(+13CT).........
85Ton.........28%(+14CT).........13%(+13CT).........
90Ton.........27%(+15CT).........12%(+13CT).........
95Ton.........26%(+15CT).........11%(+12CT).........
100Ton.......25%(+14CT).........10%(+11CT).........

is it enough?

=(Poll)=

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit-
24Hour Stats= (3.6%Strong) / (12.7%Ok) / (83.7%Weak)

Edit2-
2Week Stats= (3.1%Strong) / (17.2%Ok) / (79.7%Weak)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 May 2017 - 11:55 AM.

[Kangarad]

its a direct nerf to all assault mechs that do not have quirs. and even then its not worth the actual point cost, your better of taking mobility (which percentage whise is also worse than for lighter mechs) or just more firepower.

itll have to change one way or another or get an offset in a different way.

[El Bandito]

I saw noticeable increase in my opponents' health when they take Survival tree. Massive damage builds that used to core out their CT in 2-3 alphas doesn't work as well, which means my sustain is taking a hit, while the enemy lives. I simply can no longer be certain if I can core out that EBJ with red CT armor before I shut down, due to Survival tree' introduction.

Is it enough? Certainly on mechs with durability quirks.

[vettie]

So far I have only tried a few mechs, mostly lights because I play them the least....

I have done a heavy mech as well, but I have 175+ more to go. I am taking my time and trying to decide what would be best for each mech as I go along.

I have found that if the mech has quirks for internals or armour, the matching skill nodes SEEM to be better than those mechs that dont have such quirks.

I am NOT saying this a a sure thing and your results may differ. I AM saying for me it SEEMS to work better.

I am one of those pilots that prefer brawling to peek a shoot so I want my mechs to last as long as possible, if this node pans out to be worthy of depth, then I will use it for most of my brawling fleet.

[Cy Mitchell]

With the exception of Shock Absorbance and AMS Overload these skills are all new. Yes, I think they are enough. Enough without being outright more powerful than nodes in other Skill Classes. These are useful on some Mechs while there are better choices for skill point investment for other Mechs. That tells me it is pretty well balanced with most everything else.

[Mister Blastman]

OFFENS:

Edited by Mister Blastman, 19 May 2017 - 04:57 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I think it's actually kind of weak. It is all but entirely useless for Lights; I wanted to use it on my MLX to buff those extra squishy 2xE arms, but no dice. Way too many nodes for what amounts to a scrape of damage absorption. Couple with the MLX being too sluggish to not take agility and too under-gunned to not invest in firepower, and the Survival tree gets cut.

There's also the case where quirked 'Mechs are benefiting mightily. I wouldn't necessarily call them OP, but have you seen the amount of armor you can get onto a Dragon or Roughneck? It is utterly insane. It's more armor than an Atlas. And by the same token, if you don't have max armor, you are missing out.

What I would rather the nodes do is add a percentage of the stock armor on top of whatever is there as a flat value. Like, for example, MLX has 16 points stock on an arm. If my nodes add 25%, they add 4 points to the arm regardless of how much armor I have allocated on that arm. Even if I allocated zero, I would still have those 4 points.

[R Valentine]

Nope. One extra hit might be ok with a duel, but in a game of 12 on 12, someone's got the guns to knock off your extra armor long before you notice its effect. Had no problem knocking Atlas's over before the patch. No problem knocking them over now. Skipping the tree entirely is no more noticeable than investing in at least half of it, save AMS overload due to the increase in LRMs, and that can be had for cheap. Get more CD and mobility. Those are there on demand. Armor's only there once and it's very fleeting.

[Alexander of Macedon]

For 'mechs with defensive quirks, it's pretty nice. For 'mechs that don't have any incredibly pressing need to max anything more than mobility + ops, it's a decent option. For most 'mechs, it's an insignificant waste of nodes.

Basically it comes down to a matter of opportunity cost. If you're gaining ~40-50 armor and however many structure across your entire 'mech, that's still barely one alpha worth of armor from most meta builds, that damage isn't going to be spread across every component, and extra structure health is only mediocre thanks to crits, especially with the boosted crit-seeking missile nodes.

Essentially, for most 'mechs, the marginal increase in survivability isn't worth giving up a full dive into the sensor tree (which means the equivalent of four and a half or so modules for maybe a third of the cost of the defense tree) or weapons tree (which can mean substantial offensive quirks for 'mechs which formerly had none). For poptarts and 'mechs which love JJ mobility, even the JJ tree is a better bet, since you can usually take that + sensors or weapons.

Basically, the defense tree is too costly for the vast majority of 'mechs to favor it over taking everything they want from any two other trees. That's compounded by the fact that there's literally no reason to dip it like you might for sensors/weapons/ops, since the per-node benefit is so tiny. Every 'mech I run is full mobility, full ops (with one or two exceptions like a dual-gauss Night Gyr with only one peep to build heat) + some combination of stuff, but only my CTFs and one Stalker took full survivability.

If you want survivability to be a viable option for most 'mechs, it either needs to be more compact or needs to have larger benefits for the current node count. The latter would probably be a bit too power-creepy, so I'd suggest the former.

So, here's a breakdown:

Currently, the defense tree is 35 nodes. Subtract the two AMS Overload nodes and the one avoidable Reinforced Casing (#4), and that's 32, or ~35% of your total SP allotment. That's way too much-for 19 you can get full radar derp, full seismic, full info gathering, and full sensor range, plus one each of decay and retention. For 20 you can get everything you need in Ops. For 18 you can get full Laser Duration, or 21 to pick up extra range. For 17 you can pick up every missile node except one mag extension. For 32 in weapons, you can get a full set of respectable quirks (even for 'mechs that formerly had none, beyond what was offered by modules, save for CD).

In short, survival costs a lot of node slots but gives you marginally useful benefits. Any other tree gives you substantial advantages that apply in every situation. Survival is literally just "you can eat maybe two more medium laser hits on each component before it goes" for anything short of a heavily defense-quirked machine.

My solution is twofold:

First: Reduce Survival to ~25 Nodes while retaining the current value for acquiring the full tree.

Second: Shift potentially unwanted gatekeeper nodes to optional side paths.

PGI already did the latter with Mobility, thank goodness. Just shunt AMS Overload, Reinforced Casing, and Shock Absorbance off into the edges. They're nice for certain types of builds and all but useless for everything else. A 'mech should be able to pick up all/almost all Armor Hardening and Skeletal Density nodes without touching them, and should be able to do so with ~18-20 SP. That's the standard set by every other tree save mobility, where you get all the essentials with 17-21 SP and can spend a few more for situationally useful options.

I wouldn't do something like increasing the values while keeping the current node count because of edge cases that already benefit enough to take full survival as it currently stands.



Not that it's overperforming, just that it needs to be viable for reasons other than having more armor and structure than God.

[cazidin]

Whelming, but OK if your mech is already buffed for extra durability through quirks.

[QuantumButler]

The biggest problem is it just isn't good enough for most robots unless they already got big buffs from quirks, except maybe some structure points on 80 to 85 tonners.

They need to cut the worthless nodes down or make armor nodes give bigger buffs on higher tons.

That said, some of my favorite robots use the survival tree extensively: Urbie, Wolfhound, Crab, Bushwacker

[nitra]

Im finding the defensive tree a great benefit. especially to my dragon.

so far seems like most my heavys have benefited from it.

the mediums and lights may be debatable.

but im finding my enforcer can take a beaten now. x5 seemed workable but that needs more testing.

i have yet to see how well the jenner does . but thats next on the list.

so far it seems to me that defensive is far better than agility. but that may very well depend on the mech.

an interesting side note is that it actaully may come down to play style as to whether defensive or agility benefits the player. better.

[Wattila]

Good for mechs that have lol quirks (Vindicators and Dragons tank like bosses), of questionable value to unquirked mechs.

EDIT: Can't claim to be an expert, but can see some comp builds putting full 33 points into the tree (along with max torso speed from mobility) as it works wonders for keeping weapons on your mech a bit longer.

Edited by Wattila, 19 May 2017 - 06:11 PM.

[QuantumButler]

Kusunoki Masashige, on 19 May 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

PGI ruined the game, its completely unplayable now and i urge players to stop playing till PGI reverts back to the pre-skill tree system. For new players coming in please be wary they have really jacked up the game and you shouldn't spend your hard earned dollars on it until they fix it.

Counterpoint: the game is more fun for me than it has been in ages

[Coolant]

Kiran Yagami, on 19 May 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

Nope. One extra hit might be ok with a duel, but in a game of 12 on 12, someone's got the guns to knock off your extra armor long before you notice its effect.

negative...LBX, SRM's, Streaks, Clan Ballistics, Clan Missiles, Lasers all spread damage - most likely hitting at least 3 different sections on a mech. An Atlas K receives an extra 14 armor on CT for full Skill Points, and an extra 9 on both Torsos. 14 + 9 + 9 = 32 damage soaked. Add in Structure with full SP's and you go from 62 to 78 on CT and 42 to 53 on LT/RT = 16 + 9 + 9 = 34 soaked points.

Add in both Armor and Structure...32+34=66 Soaked damage

Edited by Coolant, 19 May 2017 - 06:04 PM.

[Deathlike]

It feels pretty mandatory in some instances, but given it doesn't give you a preview of how much that bonus would give to your mech until you apply it, you start having to use calc.exe for stuff.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 May 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[Ultimax]

I've been investing heavily in it, and I think it's overall bad for the game.

[Chados]

I like it for my Catapults and Summoners.

[GrimRiver]

QuantumButler, on 19 May 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Counterpoint: the game is more fun for me than it has been in ages

It certainly made my tanky brawlers even tankier.

The only light survival tree is good on is the urban in my opinion.

Helps non quirked clan mechs too.

[Kaptain]

I like this tree for the most part. I would like to see shock absorbance nodes moved so that they are not required when flushing out armor/structure.