10 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not very familiar with the Battletech Lore, but it seems there is not really a concept of artificial intelligence in the universe?

Are there any in-universe explanations why? Is it Lostech, was it never developed, or was it forbidden (after some bad experience, or out of principle?)

Or is there just never any talk about it, it simply does not fit the setting? (Especially since it was developed in the 80s and AI was not really on the radar them, or at least seemed highly unlikely ot happen.)

[AncientRaig]

There is AI in Battletech, it's just not very widespread due to the whole "we forgot how to build everything" thing. Look up The Broken on Sarna, or the SLDF's Caspar AI warships. The Broken was the Capellan's attempt to make AI controlled mechs. It.... didn't go well. It was based on Caspar, which got lost after the fall of the Star League.

[Karl Streiger]

Its called Advanced Smart Robotic Control System (ASRCS) - as the name indicates it is able to perform independed actions.
However there need to be a human control platform that might trigger the "behavior"

In reality its not real inteligence its only a simple trigger mechanism - I don't think that self-awareness; learning or creating new processes would be possible.

It could be triggered aggressive, neutral; defensive - and based on target movement, fleet movement or damage taken the "drone" will react.

Drones etc. were used for example in Pocket Warships (drop ships); Aerospace Fighter; Quad BattleMechs

Its possible that the DI Computer (Diagnostic Interpretation Computer) of a BattleMech will also use trigger to support the mechpilot.

[Fyrwulf]

Look up the Caspar system; the original, not the poor facsimile fielded by the Wobbly Ones.

[Karl Streiger]

Fyrwulf, on 14 June 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

Look up the Caspar system; the original, not the poor facsimile fielded by the Wobbly Ones.

Considering the "game mechanics" they seem to be equal - with the exception that the SDLF had a shielded ASRCS were as the WoB used a smart ASRCS .... i admit i didn't read the rules in details - didn't needed that knowledge yet.

[Nebfer]

AI in B-tech is and is not Losttech

B-tech never truly developed true AI in the first place, they came close with various devices like with the CASPERs, and other such "AIs". Basically what B-tech can do is really really smart programs. Though it dose depend on what do you define as AI?

If you take AI to be human like and self aware, then No B-tech dose not have these (and per the Devs it's unlikely they will).
If by super smart computer programs (at lest in specific areas) then yes B-tech can and dose have them, though most where lost when the Star League fell.

[evilauthor]

Nebfer, on 20 June 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

AI in B-tech is and is not Losttech

B-tech never truly developed true AI in the first place, they came close with various devices like with the CASPERs, and other such "AIs". Basically what B-tech can do is really really smart programs. Though it dose depend on what do you define as AI?

If you take AI to be human like and self aware, then No B-tech dose not have these (and per the Devs it's unlikely they will).
If by super smart computer programs (at lest in specific areas) then yes B-tech can and dose have them, though most where lost when the Star League fell.

Yes. The infamous Caspar drones (AI controlled warships) had all the awareness and decision making capability of a video game NPC. Which if you've played games against unnerfed AIs would make them VERY scary in tactical combat where accuracy and twitch reflexes are important (the turrets in MWO for example never seem to miss), but completely useless when it comes to strategic planning and decision making.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thanks for the replies so far!

[Koniving]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 June 2017 - 11:47 PM, said:

I am not very familiar with the Battletech Lore, but it seems there is not really a concept of artificial intelligence in the universe?

Are there any in-universe explanations why? Is it Lostech, was it never developed, or was it forbidden (after some bad experience, or out of principle?)

Or is there just never any talk about it, it simply does not fit the setting? (Especially since it was developed in the 80s and AI was not really on the radar them, or at least seemed highly unlikely ot happen.)

There's actually a considerable amount of AI, but not genuine AI.
If you consider AI as in the aspect of "enemies" in video games, it is prevalent in everything from security bots to the Battlemechs themselves.

An example of an AI-controlled security robot in 3025. I took this screenshot while combing through the books. This was either under Mercenaries or Mechwarrior 1st edition. I do believe it came from one of the many mercenary books (turns out I have 7 of them...holy ****.)


(most of what 'Mechs actually do are interpretations of the pilot's intent through the basic controls, which a Diagonistic Interpretation computer then puts into action. For example, 'Mechs automatically try to avoid harm both foreign [enemy fire] and domestic [damaging itself through collisions, a mech with enough time to react as it moves will automatically try to avoid stepping on vehicles, colliding with signs, avoid tree branches, etc]. It is when there is 'intent' to say punch through a wall or body slam or step on that car that the machine does these things. Unfortunately, if the pilot is unconscious there is a lack of 'intent', and without that intent the machine will not react save for an attempt to keep balanced.... this is why "Called shots" also known as "Aimed shots" can't occur unless the 'Mech is shutdown or the pilot is unconscious. It's not that you aren't aiming when you shoot at a 'Mech. But it is only in those two conditions that the 'Mech cannot react due to the lack of intent. If you could artificially inseminate "intent", you'd basically have 'Mechs that could pilot themselves. So in a way, you could consider mechs to have AI.)

Combat sims, from that within the Crab's sensor suite to training pods featured in the BT cartoon, can take combat data from actual battles and even supposition "what if" scenarios. That takes quite a bit of intelligence if you consider how big Battletech battles are actually "supposed to be."

The Broken is an example of a "True" AI and thus very noteworthy compared to most AI. However, untrue AI is pretty common. Think of it to being akin to "VI" in Mass Effect and you'll find "AI" just about everywhere.

Edited by Koniving, 21 June 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[Koniving]

In the Battletech cartoon, Star League tech from a drop ship could project mech-sized holograms of mechs for use in 'training', each effectively acting like a 'Mech with behavioral responses and the like. Couldn't touch them but evidently the Clans couldn't tell the difference until trying to grab them.

There is mention of 'drone' mechs in multiple FASA sanctioned references from MW2 (the instructor), MW2 Mercs (that instructor), 1st Sommerset Strikers companion (might be spelling it wrong, Clan pilots with EI implants can remotely control their mechs without even being inside them. This control can be done in depth (remote control) or with assigning basic tasks (similar to "NPC" AI). This gets an actual set of rules in Max Tech, I believe. There's more, but I got a plate of food and a toddler that wants to take it away from me. Will dig into it tomorrow to find more.

But basically, AI in Battletech "just runs program."

If, then, etc.
They still need input. So they won't be thinking for themselves.
So you won't have this:

Or this

Edited by Koniving, 21 June 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[Nebfer]

As stated B-tech never made true AIs but it did make a number of highly capable Programs that perhaps could be considered to have come close.

Caspers are open ended enough to leave some room,
Then theirs the Pygmalion and Bright Star auto scout... (both are autonomous drone ships that went off the reservation...)

Though B-tech dose seem to have a problem with AI and FTL jumping

Theirs The Broken, some what apocryphal (found in how B-tech would do Zombies, lit weaponized Mad Cow, more interesting is that they can treat it to a point), which is perhaps a bit like WOPR from the movie War Games.

Interstellar ops mentions this on pg 135

Quote

Even the most sophisticated robots of the Star League
remained truly incapable of independent thought. Despite
some of the best approximations of human brain processing
possible, these high-tech wonders relied on a fundamental base
programming—thought algorithms that could only anticipate
so many variables.

A Number of entry's from Into Ops on B-techs various computer controlled units

Quote

SMART ROBOTIC CONTROL SYSTEM (SRCS)
Introduced: Early spaceflight
Even the most sophisticated robots of the Star League
remained truly incapable of independent thought. Despite
some of the best approximations of human brain processing
possible, these high-tech wonders relied on a fundamental base
programming—thought algorithms that could only anticipate
so many variables.set in advance of their deployment.
The main drawback to these
independent robotic units, which greatly limited their military
application, was their susceptibility to ECM, combined with
programming that proved too rigid to adapt to a rapidly changing
battlefield environment.
Although a smart robotic control system (SRCS) could be installed
in virtually any type of vehicle, the technology was most commonly
mated with aerospace units, which operated far from significant
terrain variables, and the risk to civilian populations and property
was vastly reduced. In the commercial sector, may firms still produce
robotic control systems for the civilian and industrial use, but the
technology fell out of use in the military sector following the collapse
of the Star League, and did not return to significant use until the years
leading up to the Word of Blake’s Jihad.

Note units with the SRCS are affected by ECM fields, where as the units below act as human operated units in a ECM field

Quote

SDS (CASPAR) DRONE CONTROL SYSTEM (SDS-DCS)
Introduced: 2695 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: 2780 (All)
Recovered: N/A
Amid its efforts to produce a far more flexible, effective, and
sophisticated defense network for its core worlds, Star League scientists
made astounding breakthroughs in the development of artificial
intelligence. Based on the first complete and successful “mental map”
of a human brain, these computers were capable of fast and intuitive
thinking that easily trumped the structured programming of older
robotic control systems. Verging on true sapience, combined with the
experience of one of the Hegemony’s greatest naval strategists, the AIs
that resulted could out-think all but the greatest military minds of the
Star League. When mated with the hulls and firepower of the Terran
Hegemony’s Space Defense System (SDS) ships, the “Caspar” drone
control system became the pinnacle of Star League technology—and,
as fate would have it, its own deadly Achilles’ Heel.
While rumors persist of other applications of the Caspars’
underlying AI technology—including predictive analysis computers
that allegedly forecasted Stefan Amaris’ coup right down to the very
day—the science that made it all possible was tightly controlled by
the Hegemony, and lost in the savage fighting between Emperor
Amaris and Kerensky’s SLDF. Furthermore, given the fact that even the
most perfect artificial intelligence ever created proved easy to turn
against its own makers by the mere flip of a switch, few of the realms
that survived the Star League’s fall were willing to expend serious
efforts in replicating such technology.

Quote

CASPAR II ADVANCED SMART
ROBOTIC CONTROL SYSTEM
Introduced: 3064 (Word of Blake)
Extinct: 3078 (All)
Recovered: 3082 (Republic of the Sphere)
Unable to replicate the truly autonomous nature of the Star
League’s SDS drone control system, the Word of Blake instead
diverted its attention toward substantial improvements in the
older smart robotic control systems (SRCS).
Dubbed the “Caspar II” system, this advanced smart robotic
control system created a more suitable combat platform by
mating independent command subroutines with humancontrolled
tactical operations. While the resulting system
lacked the true autonomy possible with the Star League
version, robotic units driven by an advanced SRCS could now
adjust their missions on the fly, making them much more
effective in a battle.

Quote

AUTONOMOUS TACTICAL
ANALYSIS COMPUTER (ATAC)
Introduced: 2705 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: 2780 (All)
Recovered: N/A
Comprising a sophisticated array of neural networks and
simulation engines designed to encapsulate the strategic and
tactical thinking of generations of Terran Hegemony admirals,
the ATAC system could coordinate the actions of an entire fleet
of drone spacecraft. Often overlooked, next to the miracle of its
drones’ near-sentience, the ATAC was a key part of what made
the Star League’s SDS network even deadlier than the sum of
its drones. A single ATAC system could transform the already
effective Caspar drones from a pack of brutal, but independent-
minded predators into a polished and professional battle fleet.