16 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

So just wondering, if PGI was balancing pulse lasers to have better DPS than ER laser counterparts, why is it that they've made ER lasers have better DPS per ton in *every* single case compared to pulse lasers?

Really though, they haven't accounted for the cost of using a pulse laser over a normal laser at all. Lets compare:

6 CERML:
Tons: 6
Alpha: 42
DPS: 8.4
HPS: 7.2

6 CMPL
Tons: 12
Alpha: 45
DPS: 10.74
HPS: 7.68

So as we can see, the 6 CERML build has less DPS and less HPS but weighs half as much, meaning you could just add in much more cooling with the 6 tons you saved and have no heat issues while the 6 CMPL build is overheating by shot 3-4. Alternatively you could add in just 2 more CERML and have *more* DPS than the 6 CMPL build and more cooling.

This doesn't even take into account the higher range you get with ER lasers compared to pulse builds.


I guess its really not much different than from before they made the change, though it is worse. Before the change the CMPL at least had a higher advantage in alpha strike potential, and after the change they have lost more DPS than the CERML have, thus they've actually given CERML a relative buff to their DPS compared to CMPL over their previous rendition.



Overall I see IS as being superior for laser weaponry now, likely with combinations of LL/ERLL with MLs on heavier mechs with MPL on their lighter mechs. Wolfhound is likely to be far superior to Clan light mechs due to being able to field 6 MPL combined with their currently very high defensive quirks. Clan light mechs will be extremely weak against other light mechs now that their small pulse lasers have taken a huge hit to damage and their ERSLs that they will be bringing instead have gotten even longer durations and cooldowns, making them terrible anti light weapons.

Also the few mechs that survived off of bringing 12 CSPL are now currently forced to pick up some new weapon systems and move from their old run up and brawl something to death with their high DPS to a more mid-long range poked based style since small pulse lasers have taken a huge hit to their DPS, and alpha while also getting higher HPS in the process. You may be able to get by with 12 ERSL, and bring extra cooling or other weaponry, though the long durations will hinder it.

[MrJeffers]

See, the mistake you are making is trying to apply logic to the dartboard of balance...

[Mole]

I had high hopes for Chris. They were expertly dashed tonight.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Don't forget that you might not have enough space to add more DHS on the CERML build so despite the build being 6 tons lighter, you might not see any advantage in cooling what so ever. One of my Supernova builds is like that. I have 8 tons and 4 slots available to use. I can either mount 4 MPLs and reach max tonnage or I can mount 4 CERMLs and be 4 tons under max weight with no room for anything else.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Viktor Drake, on 17 June 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

Don't forget that you might not have enough space to add more DHS on the CERML build so despite the build being 6 tons lighter, you might not see any advantage in cooling what so ever. One of my Supernova builds is like that. I have 8 tons and 4 slots available to use. I can either mount 4 MPLs and reach max tonnage or I can mount 4 CERMLs and be 4 tons under max weight with no room for anything else.

True, though I'm not convinced that the compact size really makes up for double the weight. The higher DPS and shorter duration of the MPL is already made up for its shorter range, it just pays doubly under its current implementation.

[El Bandito]

OP forgot to mention duration. An important aspect of laser vomit. CERML has 1.25 second duration post patch, which is closer to CERLL level of duration (1.35 second). CMPL will have 0.9 duration which is much more accurate.

Besides, CMPL traded 6.25% damage, and 5.9% second extra duration for 16.7% less heat. Many of my CMPL mechs are loving it.


Finally, regular lasers had better damage per ton ratio than pulses, from 2012, in MWO. PGI said nothing about balancing DPS per ton.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2017 - 12:22 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

Finally, regular lasers had better damage per ton ratio than pulses, from 2012, in MWO. PGI said nothing about balancing DPS per ton.

That's one of my main problems with the whole thing, not only did they not address the issue, they actually made it worse.

[Deathlike]

You know...

It was like years ago when "finally" PGI/Paul/whomever admitted that making pulse lasers generate MORE heat than their non-pulse counterparts was a bad idea, due to range/tonnage/duration/obvious considerations that made pulse lasers inferior at the time.

It may take years for PGI to understand how DPS, heat, and tonnage are what makes heat sustainability viable or non-viable.

[The6thMessenger]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

Finally, regular lasers had better damage per ton ratio than pulses, from 2012, in MWO. PGI said nothing about balancing DPS per ton.

But shouldn't that extra tonnage worth something though?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The6thMessenger, on 18 June 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

But shouldn't that extra tonnage worth something though?

Maybe this is some method PGI is using to increase time to kill by forcing players to either use the weapons with long durations or be stuck with an even trashier weapon.

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 18 June 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

Maybe this is some method PGI is using to increase time to kill by forcing players to either use the weapons with long durations or be stuck with an even trashier weapon.

Best ideas evah amirite?

[Cementi]

Just like all the WAAAAHHHH my laser posts your are omitting stats.

Burn time.

Actually if I am not mistaken it is not factored into those dps values as your lasers do not start to cool down till after the burn is done.

CERML DPS is actually 1.47 not 1.4
6 CERML DPS is actually 8.82
CMPL DPS is actually 1.92 not 1.79
6 CMPL DPS is actually 11.52

If you are looking just at a DPS difference the tonnage lost is not worth it however you have to factor it the shorter burn time.

*edit* Ok not sure who they got there numbers or if I am making a mistake somewhere but if I am right their DPS numbers are wrong.

Edited by Cementi, 18 June 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Cementi, on 18 June 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

*edit* Ok not sure who they got there numbers or if I am making a mistake somewhere but if I am right their DPS numbers are wrong.

Yup, PGI got the numbers wrong on the cERML and cMPL DPS.

Dakota1000, on 18 June 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

Maybe this is some method PGI is using to increase time to kill by forcing players to either use the weapons with long durations or be stuck with an even trashier weapon.

Are those two options not the same thing?

[Mcgral18]

Cementi, on 18 June 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

Just like all the WAAAAHHHH my laser posts your are omitting stats.

Burn time.

Actually if I am not mistaken it is not factored into those dps values as your lasers do not start to cool down till after the burn is done.

CERML DPS is actually 1.47 not 1.4
6 CERML DPS is actually 8.82
CMPL DPS is actually 1.92 not 1.79
6 CMPL DPS is actually 11.52

If you are looking just at a DPS difference the tonnage lost is not worth it however you have to factor it the shorter burn time.

*edit* Ok not sure who they got there numbers or if I am making a mistake somewhere but if I am right their DPS numbers are wrong.

12 tons gets you 11.53 DPS
6 tons gets you 8.84 DPS


ERML has 0.56 Dam/tick
cMPL has 0.83 Dam/tick

[FupDup]

I appreciate the point you're making, but I have to point out that the "DPS per ton" stat shouldn't be focused on too hard and used as the cure-all here.

For example, let's look at the Clam ERML and MPL. The ERML does 1.69 DPS right now and the MPL does 2.08.

If we wanted the Clan MPL to have better DPS per ton then it would need to have greater than 3.38 DPS by itself. That's a single two-ton laser weapon with more DPS than an eight-ton (ten with ammo) AC/5.

[El Bandito]

The6thMessenger, on 18 June 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

But shouldn't that extra tonnage worth something though?

It DID. For IS and Clan LPL, especially. But then PGI nerfed them.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

It DID. For IS and Clan LPL, especially. But then PGI nerfed them.

To be fair, MPLs were largely neglected outside specific niches for a while...and IS Smalls were summarily ignored in favor of better options.

The only reason MPLs will swing back into favor is because one of those will literally equal 2 SPLs basically...while the IS smalls are still screwed, and the one worthwhile small laser clans had was nerfed into oblivion.

Edited by Gyrok, 18 June 2017 - 07:05 PM.