35 replies to this topic

[Escef]

cazidin, on 18 June 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

First. Weren't sensor quirks supposed to be unique to the Cyclops, like the Night Gyrs zero heat transfer and the Urbie's magic spin?

The Night Gyr's quirk is an upgraded version of the Hellslinger Battlemaster's quirk.

[Weeny Machine]

Bud Crue, on 19 June 2017 - 04:27 AM, said:

I'm too lazy to verify, but I think that this patch might put the Black Knight back on top as the most nerfed mech in the game. I believe the most extensive nerfing crown (number's wise) at least recently, had belonged to the Kodaks, but for frequency of nerfs I think the BK has the crown. The BK's repeated nerfing in 2016 (including rescale), the main nerf after it dropped, plus the IS overal energy range nerf, and now the upcoming nerf to the 6 might put it on top for both frequency AND overall numbers. Is the BK 6 now the overall king of nerfs or does some other mech have that honor?

No one beats the Huginn when it comes to nerfs

[Bud Crue]

Bush Hopper, on 19 June 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

No one beats the Huginn when it comes to nerfs

Ooooo....good one.
Still though, while a dramatic nerf it losing its once legendary SRM4 coold down quirk, it really hasn't been systematically beaten with the nerf bat to the degree that the Black Knight and Kodaks have been (the Raven losing its near invincible legs of olde doesn't count as a nerf imho). The only other mechs that come close to that level of dramatic and repeated nerfs over time that I can think of is the Timberwolf throughout its first couple of years and then again suddenly with the agility nerfs of the skills tree. Sure lots of mechs get hit hard and then left for dead (Huggin, Oxide, Jester...hell most hero mechs, Victors until last December, etc.) but I really can't think of many others that have been repeatedly smacked about more than the BK, Kodaks, and Timber...maybe the Thunderbolt, but I only remember 2 significant smacks to them, and even the Quickdraws were hit more in 2016 than the T-Bolts were in 2015. Hmmm. There has to be other contenders for the most beaten/nerfed/balanced, that I am just not thinking of.

[DrxAbstract]

Bud Crue, on 19 June 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Ooooo....good one.
Still though, while a dramatic nerf it losing its once legendary SRM4 coold down quirk, it really hasn't been systematically beaten with the nerf bat to the degree that the Black Knight and Kodaks have been (the Raven losing its near invincible legs of olde doesn't count as a nerf imho). The only other mechs that come close to that level of dramatic and repeated nerfs over time that I can think of is the Timberwolf throughout its first couple of years and then again suddenly with the agility nerfs of the skills tree. Sure lots of mechs get hit hard and then left for dead (Huggin, Oxide, Jester...hell most hero mechs, Victors until last December, etc.) but I really can't think of many others that have been repeatedly smacked about more than the BK, Kodaks, and Timber...maybe the Thunderbolt, but I only remember 2 significant smacks to them, and even the Quickdraws were hit more in 2016 than the T-Bolts were in 2015. Hmmm. There has to be other contenders for the most beaten/nerfed/balanced, that I am just not thinking of.

I would say the FS9-A is a strong contender, but BKs have definitely earned PGIs ire. It's an otherwise incredibly tank chassis, especially with points in the Survival tree, but most of its effective builds rely on the use of an XL, like many other IS Mechs. With the Advent of LFEs soon to be upon us and the chassis retaining modest mobility despite the decoupling large engines have become far less important... I can see a 325 LFE turning the BK into a nightmare machine. Perhaps losing what few offensive quirks they had left will be warranted.

[Deathlike]

DrxAbstract, on 19 June 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

I would say the FS9-A is a strong contender, but BKs have definitely earned PGIs ire. It's an otherwise incredibly tank chassis, especially with points in the Survival tree, but most of its effective builds rely on the use of an XL, like many other IS Mechs. With the Advent of LFEs soon to be upon us and the chassis retaining modest mobility despite the decoupling large engines have become far less important... I can see a 325 LFE turning the BK into a nightmare machine. Perhaps losing what few offensive quirks they had left will be warranted.

You're not going to get the tonnage you'd like back from an LFE unfortunately.

[Kmieciu]

DrxAbstract, on 19 June 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

I can see a 325 LFE turning the BK into a nightmare machine.

I've been playing 3 hours yesterday, and not once did I experience a premature XL death. Not even against teams like EVIL in FW. The secret strategy is using mechs that can shield with their arms and spread the damage evenly across 3 torso sections. Mechs like Warhammer or Marauder have superior geometry to the point my weapons get critted out before losing a side torso.

Durability quirks coupled with survival tree lower the XL risks even further. LFE will make underpowered mechs a bit better, but won't do much for top IS performers.

Edited by Kmieciu, 19 June 2017 - 10:51 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Kmieciu, on 19 June 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

I've been playing 3 hours yesterday, and not once did I experience a premature XL death. Not even against teams like EVIL in FW.

Yeah... that's great and all, but completely irrelevant. Thanks for sharing?

Carrying a soandso's unit tag doesn't automatically make you good, or that said players are putting forth an effort. I have plenty match result screen shots depicting numerous 'good' MWO players scoring poorly in meta builds to indicate not everyone plays hard all the time... Or sober.

Quote

The secret strategy is using mechs that can shield with their arms and spread the damage evenly across 3 torso sections. Mechs like Warhammer or Marauder have superior geometry to the point my weapons get critted out before losing a side torso.

If you're driving a Marauder and they're not shooting your legs or groin chances are they don't know what they're doing or just don't care enough to play 'tryhard mode'.

You can argue anecdotes all you like, it does not change the fact you're still using an XL and thus still subject to its inherent weakness. All it takes is one person that doesn't fall for your feints, dump their alphas into your arms or waste shots and knows a twisted location is never fully protected against a steady, determined aim... To say nothing of the possibility of being engaged by more than one person at once, or that you'll even be aware of the persons shooting at you before they take their first shot. Some Mechs have better geometry than others, but it makes little difference against people that both know what they're doing and possess the determination to end you.

Quote

Durability quirks coupled with survival tree lower the XL risks even further. LFE will make underpowered mechs a bit better, but won't do much for top IS performers.

I think you're going to find the list of top IS performers changing pretty dramatically with the introduction of the new tech, because a few of the underpowered IS Mechs will greatly benefit from some of the stuff on that list... Provided its not implemented in some asinine fashion... .

Deathlike, on 19 June 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

You're not going to get the tonnage you'd like back from an LFE unfortunately.

Mind elaborating?

[Bud Crue]

DrxAbstract, on 20 June 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Mind elaborating?

I would guess that he is getting at the fact that most Black Knight builds are running a an XL350 right now at 22 tons, and LFE 325 weighs close to the same (I don't remember the ratio's anymore sorry) so dropping to a 325 LFE gains you engine survivability (and slower speed), but not a lot of tonnage if you stick with the current meta builds.

[Kmieciu]

DrxAbstract, on 20 June 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

If you're driving a Marauder and they're not shooting your legs or groin chances are they don't know what they're doing or just don't care enough to play 'tryhard mode'.

You've just proven I'm right. Marauder has such perfect hit boxes than the best course of action is to go for the legs.

Downgrading from XL to light engine would in fact decrease my durability since I would be going slower and my legs would be easier to hit.

1v1 the IS XL is a liability but in 12v12 speed and firepower win games.
12 "fragile" IS XL mechs vs 12 STD engine "tanks" - I bet my money on XL team. By a landslide.

Edited by Kmieciu, 20 June 2017 - 02:56 AM.

[Aramuside]

Kmieciu, on 19 June 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

I've been playing 3 hours yesterday, and not once did I experience a premature XL death. Not even against teams like EVIL in FW. The secret strategy is using mechs that can shield with their arms and spread the damage evenly across 3 torso sections. Mechs like Warhammer or Marauder have superior geometry to the point my weapons get critted out before losing a side torso. Durability quirks coupled with survival tree lower the XL risks even further. LFE will make underpowered mechs a bit better, but won't do much for top IS performers.

Good luck spreading those dual gauss I kept getting side torsoed with in my JM6 the other day.

[Kmieciu]

Aramuside, on 20 June 2017 - 02:58 AM, said:

Good luck spreading those dual gauss I kept getting side torsoed with in my JM6 the other day.

JM6 is well known for being unable to spread damage, dakka builds in particular. Then again it the only viable IS choice for a 3UAC5 heavy. Trying to out-trade a Night Gyr is foolish, though.

[Damnedtroll]

Wow they are nerfing the Knight again ! After the last nerf i more or less stopped to use it. After the skill bush, started to use it a bit and find it fragile again but at least with good firepower and now pow... Weapon quirk will be mostly gone ! We will see what i can do with it after that...


For the LFE, it will bring a lot of life back to mech like the Jaggermech with their easy targeted Torso !

Edited by Damnedtroll, 20 June 2017 - 04:22 AM.

[ShootterMcGavin]

The Cyclops should have an even better bonus for the b2000. May like being able to shrug off ECM within a certain radius, for itself and a few friendly mechs within that radius, not game breaking stuff but something to give a little extra individuality to some mechs. The sensor range is nearly worthless. And a few other mechs should have more individual specialties, BLK included. Plzgi

[Deathlike]

DrxAbstract, on 20 June 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Mind elaborating?

I wish I had a table handly for STD -> LFE -> XL, but ultimately the tonnage saved from going from STD to XL is far more significant than you are giving credit for... because once you get the LFE, you'll realize that tonnage that you'd have paid for by the XL engine is not "generous enough" (especially compared to the Clan version, which gains a lot more benefits naturally, despite the torso penalty).

Here's a quick reference (not sure if accurate):
https://www.reddit.c...hts_in_mwo_for/

So for a 350XL, you need 22 tons.

The equivalent LFE is 305LFE or LFE305 (not sure what the best way of listing this, probably the latter)... and the LFE325 requires 25 tons. So, you're already in the hole with 3 tons just to make up what the 350XL did.

[DrxAbstract]

Bud Crue, on 20 June 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

I would guess that he is getting at the fact that most Black Knight builds are running a an XL350 right now at 22 tons, and LFE 325 weighs close to the same (I don't remember the ratio's anymore sorry) so dropping to a 325 LFE gains you engine survivability (and slower speed), but not a lot of tonnage if you stick with the current meta builds.

Assumptions is what he's doing... *facepalm*

Deathlike, on 20 June 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

I wish I had a table handly for STD -> LFE -> XL, but ultimately the tonnage saved from going from STD to XL is far more significant than you are giving credit for... because once you get the LFE, you'll realize that tonnage that you'd have paid for by the XL engine is not "generous enough" (especially compared to the Clan version, which gains a lot more benefits naturally, despite the torso penalty).

Here's a quick reference (not sure if accurate):
https://www.reddit.c...hts_in_mwo_for/

So for a 350XL, you need 22 tons.

The equivalent LFE is 305LFE or LFE305 (not sure what the best way of listing this, probably the latter)... and the LFE325 requires 25 tons. So, you're already in the hole with 3 tons just to make up what the 350XL did.

Yeah... I've been doing this for a really long time, Death--I know how to build a Mech .
My BKs run an XL360 at 23.5 Tons. The idea is to make the swap while keeping the tonnage use of the chassis relatively the same, which it will be.

[DrxAbstract]

Kmieciu, on 20 June 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

You've just proven I'm right. Marauder has such perfect hit boxes than the best course of action is to go for the legs.

Umm... You're arguing with yourself on this one, because that was never my point, or topic. So congratulations on "being right", I guess?

Quote

Downgrading from XL to light engine would in fact decrease my durability since I would be going slower and my legs would be easier to hit.

The change in animation speed is barely perceptible, and anyone who's a threat will be shooting your immobile Hips, not your actual legs.

Quote

1v1 the IS XL is a liability but in 12v12 speed and firepower win games.
12 "fragile" IS XL mechs vs 12 STD engine "tanks" - I bet my money on XL team. By a landslide.

Where are you going with this? I ask because nobody is talking about it. It seems you're determined to turn this into an XL vs STD vs LFE argument with me and I'm not interested in having one.