28 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Metus regem, on 20 June 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

In this instance Ultimax, I think that the using a MAD-IIC Scorch would be the better choice due to the inherent inefficiencies of a 90t platform over an 85t platform. Granted the 90t can boast more armour, yet will have to give up engine size to reach it, due to the extra weight of the base engine required to get the same ground speed. It's really going to come down to how much Yaw and Pitch angles the Mad Cat II is going to get, as well as how will her hit boxes work with being about 20% larger than a standard Timber Wolf....

Well, a scorch can't use JJs AT ALL, so I don't think it matters as much. A couple of tons for an engine isn't going to make or break a mech.

[Metus regem]

Snowbluff, on 20 June 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Well, a scorch can't use JJs AT ALL, so I don't think it matters as much. A couple of tons for an engine isn't going to make or break a mech.

True, but the 2t/ea for the JJ's that a Mk. II will employ will have a bad return on investment... Just look at a Super Nova or Highlander, they are not fantastic jumpers...

Looks like you can get the same 2cERPPC+2cGauss w/4t ammo and 2 JJ while running max armour on a Super Nova Boiler with a cXL 325 17 DHS and a TC Mk.I...

Where as forgoing the JJ's on the Scorch, you can do almost the same thing with the stock cXL 340 and only 2 less DHS...

BOILER
SCORCH


As I said, this is really going to come down to hit boxes on the Mk, II a 90t platform is inefficient vs an 85t platform if you want to run at 64km/h and pack a big punch... in this case the 85t platform would come out a head with more armour at the same ground speed, as the 90t unit will either have to give up speed to get more armour or give up armour to to get the ground speed.

[Vonbach]

Enjoy PPC Gauss before the nerf. It wont be king forever.

[Ultimax]

Metus regem, on 20 June 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

In this instance Ultimax, I think that the using a MAD-IIC Scorch would be the better choice due to the inherent inefficiencies of a 90t platform over an 85t platform. Granted the 90t can boast more armour, yet will have to give up engine size to reach it, due to the extra weight of the base engine required to get the same ground speed. It's really going to come down to how much Yaw and Pitch angles the Mad Cat II is going to get, as well as how will her hit boxes work with being about 20% larger than a standard Timber Wolf....

If you re-read my post, I was very specific and identified the Madcat MK II as the best option for CBill mechs.


"... as good or better than current CBill options..."

2 reasons.

1) CBill available mechs are the only ones usable in the new competitive queue.
2) I don't like to personally endorse people buying hero mechs, especially when they have unique or semi-unique loadouts that are upper tier performance.


Now, onto the meat.

You may very well be right, but:

> Madcat MK II doesn't need to take JJs, but has the option to do so
> By the artwork, the Madcat's hardpoint locations look to be superior to the Scorch's arm mounts
> A few KPH linear speed is not really a big deal with this kind of build - and the engine gap is not going to be that big (I'm not sure what people run on their Scorch's but I would personally run a 325 most likely - a 350 on the Madcat would be easy to fit and the speeds are similar, while the MC-II still picks up like 2 tons to use elsewhere.

[Metus regem]

Ultimax, on 20 June 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

If you re-read my post, I was very specific and identified the Madcat MK II as the best option for CBill mechs.


"... as good or better than current CBill options..."

2 reasons.

1) CBill available mechs are the only ones usable in the new competitive queue.
2) I don't like to personally endorse people buying hero mechs, especially when they have unique or semi-unique loadouts that are upper tier performance.


Now, onto the meat.

You may very well be right, but:

> Madcat MK II doesn't need to take JJs, but has the option to do so
> By the artwork, the Madcat's hardpoint locations look to be superior to the Scorch's arm mounts
> A few KPH linear speed is not really a big deal with this kind of build - and the engine gap is not going to be that big (I'm not sure what people run on their Scorch's but I would personally run a 325 most likely - a 350 on the Madcat would be easy to fit and the speeds are similar, while the MC-II still picks up like 2 tons to use elsewhere.

I did miss the part where you did specify the CBill part, that is on me.

As for where I think the 90t Mk. II will fall, is that in the base unit it only has 13t of FF armour stock, while running:
2x CGR
4x GR ammo
4x cERML
2x cLRM/10
2x LRM ammo
14x DHS
3x JJ


Now if we want to keep the same ground speed, go dual GR/PPC, best we can do is run 15 DHS and max armour with 1 JJ... 1 JJ for a 90t mech borders on worthless in MWO, so lets say we drop to 0 JJ's well now we can run 17 DHS, max armour (with nearly a half a ton of waste (.46t), so lets round that down to 14.5t of armour and take another .5t of GR ammo... that is all while keeping the base 360 series XL engine... if we were to dial that 360 down to a 350, we'd get back .5t, so we could drop that extra .5t of GR ammo for an 18th DHS.

So in short I would expect the "meta-mech" version of the Mk. II to be set up like this:

14.5t armour (FF)
350 cXL
Endo S.
18 DHS
2x GR
4x Ammo GR
2x cERPPC

Now I'm not a competitive player, but to me with out the signature JJ's of the Mk. II, it just feels a bit bland. As I said, this is really going to come down hit boxes and how those hit boxes interact with the agility of the unit.

[Ultimax]

Metus regem, on 20 June 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

So in short I would expect the "meta-mech" version of the Mk. II to be set up like this:

14.5t armour (FF)
350 cXL
Endo S.
18 DHS
2x GR
4x Ammo GR
2x cERPPC

Now I'm not a competitive player, but to me with out the signature JJ's of the Mk. II, it just feels a bit bland. As I said, this is really going to come down hit boxes and how those hit boxes interact with the agility of the unit.

Yeah basically, near max armor, 4 tons of ammo and either 18 DHS with MK 1 TC or 17 DHS and a JJ.

Speedwise it's very similar to the Scorch, Class 1 JJs suck as JJs but are still useful for getting over rocks and bad terrain and the hotboxes/ & hardpoints look to be stronger than the MAD-IIC imo.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 20 June 2017 - 02:14 AM, said:

Marauder-IIC obviously. Fully right-sided. Next best thing is Kodiak, then DireWolf. Dire - fully right-sided.

This is how you end up stripped and worthless, full asym is bad and has been bad for a while. The MAD-IIC sacrifices the least to move over the PPCs to the left arm since you don't really have to expose that much more than before.

Night Gyr is also better than the Mauler, King Crab, and Kodiak because all three suffer from being asym, 2 suffer from being IS, and 2 suffer from being horrible immobile.

Ultimax, on 20 June 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Yeah basically, near max armor, 4 tons of ammo and either 18 DHS with MK 1 TC or 17 DHS and a JJ.

It will be the former, knowing your paths is generally more useful in comp than the JJ will be. Whether it will be better than the MAD-IIC remains to be seen since mobility will play into it as will how much it exposes to fire those wide mounts.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 June 2017 - 01:57 PM.

[Metus regem]

Ultimax, on 20 June 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Yeah basically, near max armor, 4 tons of ammo and either 18 DHS with MK 1 TC or 17 DHS and a JJ.

Speedwise it's very similar to the Scorch, Class 1 JJs suck as JJs but are still useful for getting over rocks and bad terrain and the hotboxes/ & hardpoints look to be stronger than the MAD-IIC imo.

Well to be honest the amount of armour difference between 14.5t of FF and 15t of FF is only around 2 points in TT or 4 in MWO, I know comp players tend to shave more than that when they need to... I really think this is going to come down to how well the hit boxes and agility work out... I mean when you stop and actually look at the Timber Wolf's hit boxes they are not fantastic, but before the decoupling the agility it had made them good.... looking at the screen shots:



One can extrapolate the hit boxes on it, by my guess, the small drums beside the LRM launchers on the top are going to be the cut off point for ST/CT with the upper strut between the cockpit glass on the ST's being the point between ST/CT as well.

My major concern about it is the shield arms, yes they are in a great place for shooting (both with and at) and shielding the ST, they are also the area where the bulk of the fire power is located so to me they seem like a double edge sword for the MK. II. As once they are gone you combat effectiveness drops. To me this is going to make it a mech to watch... unlike the Annihilator....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 20 June 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

My major concern about it is the shield arms, yes they are in a great place for shooting (both with and at) and shielding the ST, they are also the area where the bulk of the fire power is located so to me they seem like a double edge sword for the MK. II.

The Night Gyr ocassionally suffers from a similar problem (granted it would be near as bad as the MKIIs) and it can be a great way at neutralizing the threat of a Night Gyr if you can't solidly hit the legs. I do think this may end up being one of the weaknesses of the MKII.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 June 2017 - 02:34 PM.