29 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

What's worse: having 3-slot DHS where you can only fit 20 or so total DHS under best cicunstabces, or having hot clan lasers/PPCs and up to 30 DHS.

And yes, some Mechs have quirks.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 23 June 2017 - 01:11 PM.

[cazidin]

Well, having hot weapons balanced by an abundance of heat sinks generally indicates that one should perform better than the other...

[Bud Crue]

Kind of indifferent, but if my performance since going clan is indicative one way or the other, I'd have to say the 3slot DHs is worse. I am having far better damage and overall performance with hot clan weapons than I ever have playing IS mechs, cold, hot, or otherwise.

[Metus regem]

Considering the RoF in MWO, I'd have to say the 3 slot DHS are worse. This is especially true come the tech update, when a lot of the Clan knock off IS kit runs noticeably hotter than the old SLDF tech kit. For example an IS UAC/20 has a base heat of 8, it may not sound like a huge increase over the base 7 of the AC/20, but with the higher RoF it'll have it will get noticeable.

[Monkey Lover]

Clan weapons are not really hot. They just do more damage so they feel hotter. The dph are all about the same.

Clan ppc is even cooler than the IS by about 25%

Run your clan mechs with 30 alphas and see how cool it really runs.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 23 June 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Monkey Lover, on 23 June 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Clan weapons are not really hot. They just do more damage so they feel hotter. The dph are all about the same.

Clan ppc is even cooler than the IS by about 25%

Run your clan mechs with 30 alphas and see how cool it really runs.

If I didn't specify "hot clan weapons" and just left it as "clan weapons" then someone would have chimed in to say that Clan weapons are hotter. Have to present things from a somewhat unbiased perspective, ya know.

For example, new tech. I am really looking forward to MRMs, but they will generate as much heat as other missile systems and I won't be able to use them as much as I want because of 3-Slot DHS. However the IS has non-ER PPCs which are really cool compared to ClanERPeeps.

[Y E O N N E]

Mmmmk, rules of thumb:

1. For a given amount of damage, and at a given mean optimum range, any Clan build can run colder than its IS counterpart on its most optimal, comparable platform

2. Clan builds can get more single-shot damage potential than Inner Sphere builds, but often with about the same damage over the duration

3. Clan weapons don't necessarily compete 1-to-1 across the divide, i.e. a Clan Large Pulse does not compete with the Inner Sphere Large Pulse, it competes with the Inner Sphere Large Laser

With that out of the way, I think the 3-slot DHS are harsher. They don't just put a low cap on your cooling potential, they eat into the room you have for the rest of your equipment and force you to put things in places where they can be easily lost, i.e. that stripped arm now contains 15-20% of your cooling potential.

[Kaeb Odellas]

3 slot DHS compounds with bigger IS everything. Bigger weapons, bulkier upgrades, bigger XL engines, etc.

Even our active probes and ECM are bigger.

[Monkey Lover]

Prosperity Park, on 23 June 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

If I didn't specify "hot clan weapons" and just left it as "clan weapons" then someone would have chimed in to say that Clan weapons are hotter. Have to present things from a somewhat unbiased perspective, ya know.

For example, new tech. I am really looking forward to MRMs, but they will generate as much heat as other missile systems and I won't be able to use them as much as I want because of 3-Slot DHS. However the IS has non-ER PPCs which are really cool compared to ClanERPeeps.

Guess the answer would be lower number of 3slot dhs are better or a high number of 2slot dhs are better.

It would depend on your free tonnage if all these are equal.

Of course they are never equal as even the tonnage and slots of the weapons are not the same. It's a difficult question.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 23 June 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[kapusta11]

Hot clan weapons also do more damage so damage per heat ratio isn't that far behind IS lasers, therefore having more dissiption (heat sinks) is better.

[Jay Leon Hart]

I'll take hotter weapons for 10 points and the mystery 'mech behind door #2, please!

[Deathlike]

You know the effing rhetorical answer Prosperity.

IS DHS takes up too many slots... being compounded with 14-slot Endo primarily in use vs Clan 7-slot FF and Endo.

It's simple math.

Sure Clan mechs have hotter weapons, but they have the space to cool them in general. That is the biggest mistake Clan apologists don't seem to get.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 June 2017 - 04:23 PM.

[Athom83]

3 Slot DHS is worse as it is compounded by larger sized weapons and XL engines.

[Angel of Annihilation]

It is about even overall. There are some clan mechs and/or clan weapon combinations that beat out IS mechs while at the same time some IS mechs and/or weapons combinations that beat out clans. However, overall you find that on your average Clan mech, you will have to carry about 25% more DHS than you will have to on the average IS mech for about the same damage output.

What this means is that most, if not all, the weight and crit savings the Clan mechs gain from smaller, lighter weapons typically has to be invested back into the Clan mech in the form of weight and crits used by the extra DHS you have to mount.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I think there is a lot more good Clan mechs, than good IS mechs.

For me the biggest thing that irks me with IS mechs, it the XL engine. Take one become much more fragile, but don't take one, have a lot less speed and speed is really important, the bigger you are the more important, as people race around and most mechs cant' really survive long on it's own.

Lucky this will change soon.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 23 June 2017 - 05:41 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Depends on the mech. A lighter mech can't take advantage of 2-slot dubs. But to be fair those hot weapons have a higher total damage and range. Which of course comes at the cost of longer duration as well. It's hard to just break it down to two facets.

[JagdpantherX]

To be specific with the clan "hotter weapons" and what that really means is that there energy weapons are slightly less heat efficient, and that efficiency difference is negated through the much better XL engines, tonnage/slot advantages of weapons/ecm/HS/Endo/Fibro/other equipment.

Sure you can min max all you want with IS mechs, but it doesn't match the advantages of the majority of clan mechs.

[El Bandito]

3-slot DHS is made even worse by 14 slot Endo/Ferro of IS mechs. Not to mention 3 slot per ST IS XL. Oh, and bulkier IS equipment and weapons.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 June 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 23 June 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

And yes, some Mechs have quirks.

That's not enough to compensate in some instances like the majority of the Black Knights (only 6B has it) or Grasshopper-5P (which never had them IIRC).

You realize that the "cap" of like almost 20 IS DHS is no real match for 24+ DHS from Clans right? That's not just on building around said facts.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 June 2017 - 09:33 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Teer Kerensky, on 23 June 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

I think there is a lot more good Clan mechs, than good IS mechs.

For me the biggest thing that irks me with IS mechs, it the XL engine. Take one become much more fragile, but don't take one, have a lot less speed and speed is really important, the bigger you are the more important, as people race around and most mechs cant' really survive long on it's own.

Lucky this will change soon.

You know honestly this is a factor as well. It is kind of funny because I was just pondering this the other day and I think this is one of the reason why there are so many IS diehards that truly believe that the Clans are OP.

Basically if you look at the number of bad mechs each side has available to them, the IS side wins by a landslide. There are so, so many bad variants or sometimes entire chassis that aren't very competitive at all, even against other IS mechs. However if you jump into the Clan Side of things, there are relatively few truly bad variants or chassis. Most are at least kinda sorta average. This tends to make people feel the Clans have an overall advantage but if you take the bad mechs out of the equation and only look at the good mechs, the IS has some real powerhouses that are every bit as powerful as any Clan mech out there. I mean I would have zero issue facing off against Highlander IIC or Supernova in a Mauler and honestly could probably comfortably beat an Executioner as well. I also wouldn't be afraid to take a Black Knight or a Marauder against a Timber Wolf or even a Night Gyr either and the Bushwacker has to be one of the toughest medium mechs on the battlefield.