47 replies to this topic

[Skanderborg]

Almond Brown, on 27 June 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

Could someone please give a Technical definition of a "Bad Hit-box" please. The term itself seems very, very "generic". Low mounts I got.

Are they simply to BIG, or to TALL, or to WIDE or ALL the above?

All Hit-boxes, for all Mech's, in each class have the same Armor potential, thus a bad Hit-box can't be armor/structure based...

Anyone?

"bad hit boxes" are a term used to define how well a mech can torso twist , shield , and spread damage across all its components , essentially increasing survival time.

There's a lot of comparisons to choose from , but since were talking about assaults ill go with the banshee and the dire wolf.

The banshee has huge arms that block its torso from the side , so a player can turn his arm towards where the fire is coming from and take the hits with his arms instead of taking CT/ST damage. It also has a pretty even distribution between LT , CT , and RT so you can spread damage evenly across the whole torso.

The Dire Wolf on the other hand , has low slung arms that do nothing to stop shots coming at its torso and extremely sluggish twist speed , its impossible to torso twist and shield in the whale. The CT is extremely easy to isolate and almost all of the damage goes there instead of taking a few points of damage in the ST's. Its so bad that most of my games in the DW end up with me having a bright red CT and minimal damage everywhere else.

[Bud Crue]

Ced Riggs, on 27 June 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Answer to the question regarding bad hit boxes

I would add: mechs that have really well defined shoulder areas too. Similar to the distinction you mention between CT and ST but even more so...think the Cataphract and Victor and especially the Dragon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dire Wolf > King Crab and I have yet to ever see an instance of the meta where this isn't the case.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Oberost, on 27 June 2017 - 01:34 AM, said:

Ok, give your Dire Wolf an IS engine and IS weapons and then you can have all this armour bonuses...

You can do the same with the rest of the Clan mechs if you feel that some armour bonuses are better than the flat out better tech that Clans have.

Works for me. My Direwolf usually has more weight available to it than it needs and with an unlocked IS engine, I could easily drop in a 300 Standard engine which wouldn't cripple my Dire when I lost its side torso. Also with LFEs coming, I could actually drop a larger, faster LFE in for the same weight and actually improve my Direwolve's speed beyond 54 kph with Tweak. Hell yeah, I would buy that for a dollar. Also because I have plenty of weight and crit space, sure I will absolutely take on a load of faster firing and cooler IS weapons, especially after the current beating Clan energy weapons got. Oh and I would be able to mount RACs or I know, HEAVY GAUSS or HEAVY PPCS!!!! Hell yeah, give it too my baby.

Seriously you people who always complain how bad the IS has it really kills me. I mean before the energy nerf which hit the Clans much, much harder than it did the IS, there was only an overall 6% performance difference between the Clans and IS and this didn't even take into account the fact that the Clans tend to attract more higher skilled players than the IS side does yet even now it is still, "Woes me, Woes me, my poor, poor IS mechs can't compete". Give us a break already ok.


Now back to the main topic.

As someone who operates about 60 IS variants on a regular basis, I would say that in most cases, the structure and armor quirks are quite necessary. Take my Loyalty Catapracht for example. It, like all Cataprachts has poor hardpoint locations and is not XL friendly at all. Overall I would normally consider it if not DOA at least obsolete and not generally worth playing, however it has a ton of extra armor due to quirks and I am sporting something like 116 CT armor on a 70 ton mech. This extra survivabilty compensates for the poor geometry of the mech and converts it from being close to DOA to actually fun and playable. Same goes for the King Crab, it needs those quirks to actually be competitive, especially with the mobility it has after the engine desync. On the other hand, that is not to say that the Direwolf doesn't also need a buff at this point because it absolutely does need those same armor/structure quirks that the King Crab does, because without any ability to increase its speed, combined with quite frankly some of the worst hitboxes in the game, it really is DOA right now and generally not worth owning or playing.

[Ced Riggs]

Just as an aside, "DOA" means "dead on arrival", and expresses that something was already dead before people got to it. The CTF isn't DoA, it's dead. The Annihilator, on the other hand, is DoA. It's not here yet, but we can already say with high certainty that it will be a rather poor performing mech. Especially with the NightStar trailing.

[Bud Crue]

Ced Riggs, on 27 June 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Just as an aside, "DOA" means "dead on arrival", and expresses that something was already dead before people got to it. The CTF isn't DoA, it's dead.

The nostalgic loretard mechwarrior looks with melancholic longing at his 8 Cataphracts.
Then in a spontaneous burst of emotion he begins to weep profoundly.
Sobbing, he screams:

"You take that back! You take it back! It's not true!
It can't be true.
Please, take it back."

-sniff-

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Viktor Drake, on 27 June 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

Works for me. My Direwolf usually has more weight available to it than it needs and with an unlocked IS engine, I could easily drop in a 300 Standard engine which wouldn't cripple my Dire when I lost its side torso. Also with LFEs coming, I could actually drop a larger, faster LFE in for the same weight and actually improve my Direwolve's speed beyond 54 kph with Tweak. Hell yeah, I would buy that for a dollar. Also because I have plenty of weight and crit space, sure I will absolutely take on a load of faster firing and cooler IS weapons, especially after the current beating Clan energy weapons got. Oh and I would be able to mount RACs or I know, HEAVY GAUSS or HEAVY PPCS!!!! Hell yeah, give it too my baby.

Seriously you people who always complain how bad the IS has it really kills me. I mean before the energy nerf which hit the Clans much, much harder than it did the IS, there was only an overall 6% performance difference between the Clans and IS and this didn't even take into account the fact that the Clans tend to attract more higher skilled players than the IS side does yet even now it is still, "Woes me, Woes me, my poor, poor IS mechs can't compete". Give us a break already ok.

I agree with the rest of your post, but did you just tried to prove how great IS tech is now on the example of engines and weapons that are not yet in the game? You kinda defeat your own argument here.
Alas, your poor direwhale, gathers dust somewhere in a corner right next to my vindicator that, of all things, got mobility nerfs from the skill tree.

[Skanderborg]

Ced Riggs, on 27 June 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Just as an aside, "DOA" means "dead on arrival", and expresses that something was already dead before people got to it. The CTF isn't DoA, it's dead. The Annihilator, on the other hand, is DoA. It's not here yet, but we can already say with high certainty that it will be a rather poor performing mech. Especially with the NightStar trailing.

Get ready for the -100% autocannon cooldown quirk for the annihilator to make it not DOA.

[Oberost]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 June 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

Dire Wolf > King Crab and I have yet to ever see an instance of the meta where this isn't the case.

Viktor Drake, on 27 June 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

Works for me. My Direwolf usually has more weight available to it than it needs and with an unlocked IS engine, I could easily drop in a 300 Standard engine which wouldn't cripple my Dire when I lost its side torso. Also with LFEs coming, I could actually drop a larger, faster LFE in for the same weight and actually improve my Direwolve's speed beyond 54 kph with Tweak. Hell yeah, I would buy that for a dollar. Also because I have plenty of weight and crit space, sure I will absolutely take on a load of faster firing and cooler IS weapons, especially after the current beating Clan energy weapons got. Oh and I would be able to mount RACs or I know, HEAVY GAUSS or HEAVY PPCS!!!! Hell yeah, give it too my baby.

Seriously you people who always complain how bad the IS has it really kills me. I mean before the energy nerf which hit the Clans much, much harder than it did the IS, there was only an overall 6% performance difference between the Clans and IS and this didn't even take into account the fact that the Clans tend to attract more higher skilled players than the IS side does yet even now it is still, "Woes me, Woes me, my poor, poor IS mechs can't compete". Give us a break already ok.

[DAYLEET]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 27 June 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

I don't see the King Crabs armor being reverted without some other corresponding buff.

In the post-desync world with the removal of all of its agility quirks it just isn't competitive with other Assaults that have better mounts, Clan XL, etc. Would you want to play a Kodiak with all of its ballistic hardpoints at crotch level?

yes, i would play a kodiak with a ballistic in the crotch.

[Oberost]

DAYLEET, on 27 June 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

yes, i would play a kodiak with a ballistic in the crotch.

[xe N on]

Ced Riggs, on 27 June 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

If you can hit the CT even after massive amounts of twisting, the hitbox is bad. Example: Timber Wolf.

Actually, the Timberwolf can quite good shield it's CT. In most matches, I loose side torso first, especially if using the TBR-A left torso.

However, shielding CT with ST is not that usefull as shielding ST/CT with arms, like e.g. GRF and SHD can do very easily.

Edited by xe N on, 27 June 2017 - 12:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Viktor Drake, on 27 June 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

On the other hand, that is not to say that the Direwolf doesn't also need a buff at this point because it absolutely does need those same armor/structure quirks that the King Crab does, because without any ability to increase its speed, combined with quite frankly some of the worst hitboxes in the game, it really is DOA right now and generally not worth owning or playing.

Normally I just skip your posts, but this is just blatantly false. The Whale is NOT that bad, in fact I prefer it over the KDK-3 for Gauss/PPC these days simply because the Kodiak has worse hitboxes when it doesn't have agility (Whale can spread damage much easier than the Kodiak can at the current agility levels). If you think it is really that bad then honestly all I can say is you just don't understand how to play it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 June 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Kubernetes]

xe N on, on 27 June 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Actually, the Timberwolf can quite good shield it's CT. In most matches, I loose side torso first, especially if using the TBR-A left torso.

It really can't though. If you're losing an ST first it's because your enemies are either missing or shooting it on purpose. Like the EBJ you can hit a Timby's CT even when it's turned perpendicular to you. The only way to avoid that is to show your back.

[Khobai]

Its not exactly a secret that the Direwolf needs a massive structure buff.

Quote

Could someone please give a Technical definition of a "Bad Hit-box" please.

A bad hitbox is a hitbox thats the wrong size for the tonnage of the mech, or a hitbox with a bad geometry like a protruding CT that can be hit from any angle, or a hitbox that thats simply not in the right location like when shooting a mech in the crotch below where the mech torso twists counts as CT, when it should clearly be legs and not CT.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Yeah...as a King Crab driver I didn't want to be "that guy" but...it was a bit too much. I dont and dont plan on ever investing in the armor skills but these things even without them are incredibly durable now. The king crab just needed ballistic CD quirks, which it actually got. I recently broke my Damage record with a 1.3k damage game in a quad UAC5 king crab...it can sling shells overboard at an alarming rate...while I'd love if those armor quirks stayed FOREVER for the sake of balance I think they need to get toned back a bit, probably to only about +10 or +15 for the CT and +9 or so for the rest. without skills i have 139ct frontal armor

Khobai, on 27 June 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

Its not exactly a secret that the Direwolf needs a massive structure buff.



A bad hitbox is a hitbox thats the wrong size for the tonnage of the mech, or a hitbox with a bad geometry like a protruding CT that can be hit from any angle, or a hitbox that thats simply not in the right location like when shooting a mech in the crotch below where the mech torso twists counts as CT, when it should clearly be legs and not CT.

Or mechs just with God Awfully large CT's like Kodiaks,Banshees and Zeuses that get them CT cored extreamly quickly no matter how good you are at rolling damage.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 June 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

Dire Wolf > King Crab and I have yet to ever see an instance of the meta where this isn't the case.

If you are good at aiming, and keep them for awa. Dakka...A king crab with the one shot UAC5 damage can ct core a Direwolf in SECONDS...ive done it before and with the skill tree and obscene ranges I can do it from much further out now as well. All ou have to do to make the whale driver cry and miss half his bursts is step slightly back and fourth while you pound that CT...in some cases ive ended trades like this where he didnt even orange my armor...ANYWHERE.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xXBagheeraXx, on 27 June 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

If you are good at aiming, and keep them for awa. Dakka...A king crab with the one shot UAC5 damage can ct core a Direwolf in SECONDS...

The Whale has the better DPS due to Clan tech, so no, even there the Whale is better. The fact the iUAC5 shoots only one pellet per trigger pull matters A LOT less when both are face staring. The Whale also benefits from less horrible convergence/mounts (and can rotate damage easier). The only dakka that is run better outside the Whale since they nerfed the Mauler is probably the 4 cAC10 Kodiak.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 June 2017 - 03:13 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 27 June 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

I agree with the rest of your post, but did you just tried to prove how great IS tech is now on the example of engines and weapons that are not yet in the game? You kinda defeat your own argument here.
Alas, your poor direwhale, gathers dust somewhere in a corner right next to my vindicator that, of all things, got mobility nerfs from the skill tree.

Sorry, I was at work and short on time during my Lunch break so might not have been clear.

What I was trying to point out was that despite what some people persist in believing, there really isn't much if any Clan Superiority going on right now let alone when the new tech hits in about 3-4 weeks. Also aside from just posting to make a point, I really do believe that the Direwhale could actually be improved by using current, existing IS tech.

One of the biggest issues the Direwhale has is its low top speed which can't be modified due to its locked engine. It has plenty of free tonnage and could actually take advantage of a 350, maybe even up to 400 sized standard engine which would at least give it enough speed to keep up with the Nascar and not fall behind to be preyed upon by the enemy team's Locust. I think the post I quoted specifically said something about the Direwolf's XL engine so that is why I brought that up.

However even beyond that, the Direwolf actually has enough crit space and free tonnage that I feel it would be greatly improved if it could mount IS tech and was using IS rules for its configuration and this includes the locked hardpoints that IS have to work with and this is even if it didn't get all the quirks a typical IS mech got.

So yeah, the IS doesn't necessarily have it so bad, in fact I would say the only place they IS really might fall a bit behind is in the medium mech category and even this is debatable when the IS has mechs like the Bushwacker which is just a terrifying beast. I mean the Bushwacker is one of the few mechs I don't want to run into at any time and quite frankly I love that about my Bushwacker and hope to god it never gets nerfed like every single decent clan mech I own does.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Viktor Drake, on 27 June 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

One of the biggest issues the Direwhale has is its low top speed which can't be modified due to its locked engine.

Not really, the MAD-IIC-C (2 Gauss/2 ERPPC) and Dakka Mauler all got away with low top speeds before both got nerfed recently. Its main weakness is really just the mount locations, if it had only clustered high mounts we wouldn't be talking about this.