51 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

Aren't ATMs supposed to get stronger the closer one gets? Why is there a minimal range then?
Reduce the max Range to LRMs and remove the minimal range I would say.

[SmokedJag]

Seriously, is this a bug? A deadzone would make them the only weapon in the game with TT/lore totally thrown out.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hopefully its a bug.. no minimum range listed on the PTS notes, but then neither is the PPC's.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeah, at sub 300 meters, SRM have a higher crit/damage and damage/ton ratio than ATM (though a worse damage/ton of ammo). There is no risk of ATM making SRM worthless.

Further, look at the overall range spread of the weapon system.

0---180----270-----------450----------------------------1150

Between 0-180, zero damage.
Between 180-270, three.
Between 270-450, two damage.
Between 450-1150, one damage.

One damage, the lowest damage possible for the weapon system, accounts for 2/3 of the usable range of the weapon system. With only 72 missiles per ton. Keeping in mind that LRM are strictly superior at the long range game in crits, tons, damage per missile, and damage per ton of ammunition.

Why is the standard ATM ammo only accounting for 1/3 of the usable range of the weapon?

So the minimum range is borked and the long range damage is literally a waste of ammunition, leaving you with an effective usable range of 180-450 meters. This is a 270 meter bracket of usability, with the constant threat of being forced to deal zero damage whatsoever if the enemy pushes even slightly. This defeats the purpose of a multi-use weapon system that could be used in a brawl. It was designed specifically to not become a gigantic liability in any sort of engagement.

Also, an oddity. The ATMs as currently presented still have a degree of indirect fire. Flatten that missile arc to an arrow straight line. No significant ballistic trajectory should be present!

Suggestions for improvement:

• Set ATM minimum range to 0 meters, but apply a linear scale up of damage to 200 meters.
  
• Increase the maximum range of the 2 damage missile from 450 meters to 650 meters.
  
• Increase ammo per ton to 90 to both normalize the damage per ton of ammo for the standard ammo with that of other missile systems, and to make using it at long range a bit less of an actual waste of tonnage and ammo.
  
• Eliminate all ballistic arc on the ATM flight path.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 28 June 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[Nesutizale]

Yah its not a bug. It seams they wanted to ATM to become a medium range weapon.
This is pretty sad as the ATM, as mentioned above, is a weapon designed to work at any range. Its drawbacks where weight, size and low ammo.

Currently it has all these drawback plus the minimal range and longer reload times.

PGI did, as far as I am concerned, a good job with the weapons. Just the ATM is not fitting. I think with all the nice stuff that are standing out and are uniquie like the RAC, MRM and Rocketluncher, clans only have the ATM that is comparable to bring something new to the table.
Heavy laser are just "the other" lasers...nothing realy new about them.

So PGI please do something about the ATM, you have left a very good first impression for me with everything else.
I think we can thank Chris and his team for this.

Edited by Nesutizale, 28 June 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[Snowbluff]

I think they're pretty good (firing pattern and sound are really nice) , but the minimum range sucks.

How about they do 1-2 damage per missile before 180m? Just so they do somethiung?

[Nighthawk513]

Min range 90 would be ok. Or a ramp up at 0-90 = 1, 90-180 = 2, and then full damage farther out.
Facehugging with multiple ATM12 would be brutally painful.

[Pariah Devalis]

Nighthawk513, on 28 June 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Min range 90 would be ok. Or a ramp up at 0-90 = 1, 90-180 = 2, and then full damage farther out.
Facehugging with multiple ATM12 would be brutally painful.

Upshot, I found that firing 4 ATM12 at once is also brutally hot. GH limit is 2, IIRC.

[Nighthawk513]

Pariah Devalis, on 28 June 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Upshot, I found that firing 4 ATM12 at once is also brutally hot. GH limit is 2, IIRC.

Did you shut down? Otherwise, you probably just one shot something if you get close.

[The6thMessenger]

For ***** sake PGI, don't put a minimum range. That just kills the short-range fire power of the weapon system.

What you should have done is made the range "untenable" but still usable.

3 damage: 0 - 180m
2 damage: 181 - 540m
1 damage: 541 - 1150m

That way we're not totally screwed, but would still be able to do damage.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 June 2017 - 02:26 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Nighthawk513, on 28 June 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

Did you shut down? Otherwise, you probably just one shot something if you get close.

Got me extremely close. That said, it could instagib something under 50 tons. RIP if it took damage on the way in. That said, it isn't exactly hard to fire 2x at a time. Tested it on an SNV with 4x ATM12 and 4x HML. Nasty build, if the ATM wasn't so horribly wonky with its range systems.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 28 June 2017 - 02:25 PM.

[shadevarr]

I am wondering why they did not implement ATMs with the variable ammo load like in battletech, it would straighten out a lot of this minimum range malarky.

[SmokedJag]

shadevarr, on 28 June 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

I am wondering why they did not implement ATMs with the variable ammo load like in battletech, it would straighten out a lot of this minimum range malarky.

Same reason the LBX is the way it is. They can't code ammo switching.

The ATM dead range needs to come in to 90m if not be removed entirely. As designed here, rushing them is effective when it really shouldn't be. The ammo per ton and bulk of the launchers/few missiles encourage you to try to get close enough to hit people for at least 2 damage. If you want 1 damage, load LRMs.

Edited by SmokedJag, 28 June 2017 - 02:51 PM.

[Stridercal]

ATMs need some kind of balancing, but i wish that PGI went another way.

Just wait... if the game timeline goes far enough, eventually we'll get HAGs and iATMs... then the clanners will finally have what they always wanted: absolute power without constraint.

[Khobai]

well im pretty sure PGI is aware people dont want them to have a min range

so I think its gonna happen. But dont expect them to keep 3 damage per missile. 2.5 is probably more likely if the min range is removed.

[The6thMessenger]

SmokedJag, on 28 June 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

Seriously, is this a bug? A deadzone would make them the only weapon in the game with TT/lore totally thrown out.

In lore, there's 3 separate ammo, which PGI compressed into 1. We're waaaaaaay past that.

[Admiral-Dan]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 June 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Hopefully its a bug.. no minimum range listed on the PTS notes, but then neither is the PPC's.

https://mwomercs.com...iday-june-30th/

Quote

Minimum Range reduced to 120 meters (from 180)

[Jep Jorgensson]

Nesutizale, on 28 June 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Aren't ATMs supposed to get stronger the closer one gets? Why is there a minimal range then?
Reduce the max Range to LRMs and remove the minimal range I would say.

Because PGI says so.

[Khobai]

Well an easy comparison is this:

ATM9 = 5 tons
x2 CSRM6+A = 5 tons
LRM20 = 5 tons

So an ATM9 should do less damage than x2 SRM6+A (24 dmg) at short range
and an ATM9 should do less damage than x1 LRM20 (20 dmg) at long range

So if ATMs have no min range, they should do 2.3 damage at short range, 2.1-2.2 damage at medium range, and 1.9 damage at long range and thats more or less perfect. That makes them viable at all range bands without being better than SRMs or LRMs.

turns out my initial estimate of 2.5/2/1.5 mightve been a bit too high for short range and too low for long range.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 04:08 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Well an easy comparison is this:

ATM9 = 5 tons
x2 CSRM6+A = 5 tons
LRM20 = 5 tons

So an ATM9 should do less damage than x2 SRM6+A (24 dmg) at short range
and an ATM9 should do less damage than x1 LRM20 (20 dmg) at long range

So if ATMs have no min range, they should do 2.3 damage at short range, 2.1-2.2 damage at medium range, and 1.9 damage at long range and thats more or less perfect. That makes them viable at all range bands without being better than SRMs or LRMs.

turns out my initial estimate of 2.5/2/1.5 mightve been a bit too high for short range and too low for long range.

2.4/2.0/1.6?